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Patty K Rivera: I'm Audible Editor Patty K. Rivera, and today I'm thrilled to be here with bestselling author Brynne Weaver to talk about the highly anticipated conclusion to her Ruinous Love Trilogy, Scythe & Sparrow. Welcome, Brynne.
Brynne Weaver: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me today.
PR: I am thrilled to have you here. Brynne, you started this incredible trilogy with Butcher & Blackbird, which captivated millions worldwide. And you followed it up with Leather & Lark, which soared straight to number one on the New York Times bestsellers list. For those who haven't yet experienced the magic, delight, and [laughs] trigger warnings of these stories, how would you describe the Ruinous Love Trilogy in your own words?
BW: I would describe it as chaos, mayhem, and romance mixed together. It's a wild ride. I wanted to make something that I hadn't really seen before in a book, or even in movies. So that's kind of the magic I tried to put into the books. I just really wanted to have fun and for people to have fun with me, but also making it morally gray, or perhaps charcoal.
PR: It works and I love it. But girl, why? What compelled you to write about stabby characters falling in love?
BW: I had already started writing stabby characters falling in love when I was self-publishing. I thought it was so fun to challenge people's thinking about, is this a good person? Is it not a good person? Do they deserve to fall in love or don't they? I had done it over the course of a couple of books. I always found serial killers and true crime really fascinating. I have a master's degree in forensic archaeology, so I was never put off by the gross or dark stuff. But what I did find was a lot of people would comment to me about how funny they found parts of it. I'm a huge lover of British comedy, in particular, so I really wanted to weave that into a story and kind of lean on that comedy aspect a little bit more. I've got a very dark sense of humor, so it just all melded together with the experience of what I had done already and things that I just really enjoyed and loved.
PR: So, because you did mention that you enjoy British comedies, did you have any direct inspirations from other books and other TV shows within that British comedy space that inspired you? Any specific ones?
BW: Yeah, actually, my husband and I used to live in the UK, so consumed a lot of that type of comedy. I absolutely love—everybody that knows me knows this—I love Hot Fuzz. I think that is the peak British comedy ever created. It is so funny and irreverent and dark and gory. The only thing for me that it lacks is romance, but it does have a great bromance. So maybe it doesn't feel like it's missing anything, really. I think that's kind of an inspiration for my type of humor that I gravitate towards. Also, Death at a Funeral, the British version, I found absolutely hysterical. Shaun of the Dead, of course. Same folks that were in Hot Fuzz. But I'm also a huge lover of classic horror films, Psycho, Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Silence of the Lambs. The book is an homage to a lot of those types of films as well, those super horror films, but try to make it funny, bring in some of that British comedy.
"I have a master's degree in forensic archaeology, so I was never put off by the gross or dark stuff."
PR: I absolutely love that. So, along with all the comedies and all the fantastic movies that you just listed, what research did you have to do to learn about how people successfully kill and get away with murder?
BW: I think I relied a bit on my education. I was always fascinated during the course of my education about serial killers and behavior and what prompted people to go down that route in life. I definitely did a lot of reading of papers and things like that as I was going along. But I also had that fundamental knowledge or that foundational knowledge from my degree. In Leather & Lark, actually, and this is a little bit of a spoiler, when the book opens and Lark kills someone with a set of fireworks, I had actually read some papers in university about people being killed with fireworks [laughs]. And it was like, "Wow, I really wanna write that into a book somewhere."
So, it was definitely past experience as well as research that I do along the way when I have questions that come up as I'm writing. I've also always been fascinated about why some serial killers just are not caught, what might be different about those people, what they might be doing differently. Because we do kind of tend to put those individuals into a box, like, "They all kind of behave like this." Well, my question in my head was, "What if they didn't? What if they took a slightly different route? What if they were more careful about their behavior or their behavior was slightly different?" I kind of challenged that as well and did some reading on those aspects of forensic psychology.
PR: On top of that, you weaved in this amazing story with brothers, with love, with all the comedy. But for now, I want to shift gears here and talk about the Kane brothers. Each of the Kane brothers has such distinct personalities and storylines, which makes their story standalone while still feeling deeply connected as part of the trilogy. How did you decide on their individual journeys and how they would intertwine, all while seamlessly balancing the romance, suspense, and dark humor that define the series?
BW: I really see the characters that I write as distinct people who are almost alive in my head, and in fact, sometimes it's a little jarring when I finish a book, because I feel like they're still out in the world somewhere. I have to convince myself that, no, I made them up in my head. They don't actually exist. I think for me, it's just a natural evolution. I'm not a plotter at all. I have a big picture in my head of some of the aspects of a book when I'm starting, but I just kind of go for it and write scenes that I see vividly in my head, and the characters just emerge out of that. I don't know, it's some kind of weird magic, and that's, to me, the best part about writing. It's like it is magic. I kind of don't almost know how it happens, but I just see these people and hear them and their interaction so vividly.
Then I tried to think about, “Now that I've gotten this image or this idea of this person in my head, what would be a natural behavior for them if they encountered this thing, or this problem, or this situation? And how would that kind of person react?” So, that's sort of how it happened. It was like they existed and I just got to look in on their lives. It's not something I force; they just are the way they are. In fact, if you try to force it, it all goes awry. I just transcribe what I'm seeing and hearing and feeling from these people I've made up. Which sounds totally bizarre.
*Warning: spoilers for Scythe & Sparrow below*
PR: I'm totally glad you touched on that. And listeners, there may be a slight spoiler in here. We do see that with Doctor Kane a lot. Rose drags him into these scenes where he is just fighting the Hippocratic Oath, that he's just like, "What do I do?" And she's like, "Well, we're here and it happened." [laughs] And you really do see him grapple with that part of him that wants to support her and that part of him that's like, "I'm a doctor. I'm supposed to be saving lives. What's going on here?"
BW: Exactly. Yeah, he's had all these expectations put upon him and he really wants to live up to them, or exceed those expectations. It's kind of how he's built. He's one of those people that is very competitive with himself, and he has a lot of aspirations and he wants to do right by his brothers and their sacrifice for him. So, it is a big challenge for him to grapple with, with Rose and all the chaos she introduces to his life. But on the other side of things, he's also had a lot of dark experiences too, so he's a little bit more comfortable with her chaos than he thinks he is at first.
PR: My next question is the Kane brothers' lives are steeped in chaos and danger. How did you see Fionn's role as the non-killer balancing out the family dynamic? And what was interesting to you about that, about exploring that dynamic?
BW: I thought for him, because of that nature of wanting to please and live up to those expectations, for me actually as an author, I found him really difficult to write in a way, because it was as though he was wanting to close himself off even from me, the person that created him. He was raised in a not very great family environment, and fortunately, he had his brothers looking out for him. But I think that did set a lot of expectations on him. So, for him, it was like this process of unwrapping, it really was like an onion, peeling off the layers of this guy and trying to see what was underneath. And this is a huge spoiler, but I thought it would be really great if—and I don't know how or when it came up. It wasn't until the third book that this idea came to me, but that he actually did have a more active role in his father's demise than anybody knew. And he's the only one that carries that secret.
So, I felt like that would be another kind of little fissure in his very polished exterior, that Rose could almost kind of worm her way into, through the layers with this thing that he's been carrying around for so long. He was a very complex guy to unravel, but Rose, fortunately, was a much easier character to work with and she was just hell-bent on doing exactly that, like ripping him to shreds.
*End of spoilers*
PR: She absolutely was. I found that just really, really beautiful about all three women, actually. Sloane, Lark, and Rose are such bold, complex, multilayered female leads. I have to say that I personally love Rose. Her heart is always in the right place, but chaos seems to follow her wherever she goes. And she has this way of handling the chaos, I'm going to say almost in a comedic way. This is definitely a spoiler, but I'm thinking back to the RV scene with the local gentleman that's on the treadmill. First of all, I was screaming, I was laughing, I was rewinding, throwing my headphones, playing it out loud, because that scene was hilarious. And it just kind of goes to show that Rose is on a mission, but she's also like, "Oh, things went sideways? That's cool. I'm just gonna roll with it." She's absolutely fascinating. So are Sloan and Lark. How did you approach creating these women who could match and challenge the Kane brothers?
BW: My goal is to always really write complex, multilayered, badass women who often have traumatic pasts, and they are survivors, they're resilient. That's what I always set out to do, because those are the women that I know. I haven't met a woman that isn't like that to some degree. Like, we have so much to endure. I think women are so complex. So, for Sloan, it was really like I had this idea that she is almost bird-like, randomly. That actually does factor in, or did factor in to Butcher & Blackbird for me. She's flighty. She has a lot of issues trusting people. She's very independent.
"I really see the characters that I write as distinct people who are almost alive in my head, and in fact, sometimes it's a little jarring when I finish a book, because I feel like they're still out in the world somewhere."
Lark was much more like, she puts on this face for everyone, and she wants to, almost in a way similar to Fionn, in that she wants to please, but she's more happy about it. But that's still a facade, because she's got so many layers of trauma to her. And then Rose, yeah, I always, from the first book, had this idea that she was just, exactly like you said, she rolls with it. She's very chaotic. She trusts her instincts because she's always had to do that. She struck out into the circus at a very young age, having to look after herself, again, from a traumatic past. She just approaches it almost completely the polar opposite to Sloane. She will just, like, "Oh, I don't know if this is gonna work. I'm gonna give it a try. I'm squeamish, but I wanna be a serial killer" [laughs]. Like, go for it. She's got such a good heart. It comes from the best place. And she adores her friends and she wants to help other women. She's very determined. That's just what she's going to do, and no matter what the universe throws at her, she will get it done.
PR: The reoccurring presence of the tarot cards felt symbolic throughout the story, especially in how they connected Fionn and Rose. What was your inspiration for weaving tarot into the journey?
BW: It's a really bizarre one for me, because when I first started the series, I didn't know that much about tarot. I had a pretty basic knowledge. But it really came through super, super strongly for me that Rose and tarot, these two things go together. And that was when I was writing Butcher & Blackbird. I had no idea what that was going to mean. This does happen a lot, by the way, when I'm writing a book. Some random idea will come to mind and I know I have to include it, but I have no idea why, so I just go with it. Kind of in Rose fashion, just roll with it. It was super strong in Butcher & Blackbird in the brief interaction that we have with her. Obviously, she doesn't appear in the same way as much in Leather & Lark, but then circling back to it in a big way in Scythe & Sparrow.
But oddly, when I wrote B&B, and I was writing, or had just finished drafting Leather & Lark, I went to LA. I went for a meeting, and then I met a friend and we went to this bookstore. It was a used bookstore. It was amazing. It had this second level with shops in it and we went into this sort of witchy shop. And as we were leaving, there were these beautiful paintings on the wall across from the shop. We were like, "Oh, wow, those are really cool." And the woman who was running the shop was like, "Oh, yeah, I painted those. I painted them from my tarot deck." I was like, "Whoa, that's kind of weird," because we had just been talking about, “Oh, I'm gonna start working on the next book,” and Scythe & Sparrow and Rose, and she does tarot. My friend and I had been talking about it.
So, I picked up this tarot deck and then really dove into learning about it. It was just one of these things, it felt right for Rose. It felt like it mixed well with her circus vibes and her history, and that she would want something from the universe to rely on in all of this chaos. It felt so right for her. It's been a really interesting personal journey, picking up this deck and learning a lot more about tarot in the process and really building that in. That's kind of how she conceptualizes all the chaos that goes on around her and this idea of, there really is this magic in the universe and in the world. And Fionn, it kind of helps him break down his preconceived notions as well.
PR: I actually found that last point that you made about Fionn and kind of breaking down his layers really thoughtful, because you do begin to see that throughout the book. I don't want to ruin anything for anyone, so I'll just say that how he uses the tarot towards the end is just so beautifully done. It was a really nice way to see him kind of explain to her, really allow her to believe, "Hey, I am in it, 100 percent. I am part of your world. Like, don't be afraid." And it was just, again, beautiful and so magical. But for me, what I feel made the story just even more magical was Samantha Brentmoor and Eric Nolan are returning to perform Scythe & Sparrow. Their duet narration has been a hit from the start. What was your reaction the first time you heard their performance?
BW: Oh, I just absolutely adore both of them. They're so talented. I think they knocked it out of the park with Scythe & Sparrow. They were all in. They both love the story. We had obviously worked together on Leather & Lark and that was super fun. We've become friends. They did such an amazing job. When I heard it and I even heard just the first couple of chapters, so each of their points of view, I was just blown away. They just did such an exceptional job.
I think Samantha really encapsulated Rose's chaos. She actually has a personal connection to the tarot aspect of it. She has this incredible deck. It's either her grandmother or her great-grandmother. Where it's a deck of cards, traditional playing cards, that has been transformed into a tarot deck with handwriting on it. So, she's inherited this incredible tarot deck, basically. And then, Eric, he just got Fionn. He just really truly understood that this man is so complex and has all these layers—the heart of him is so buried down. I felt like he just was able to portray that in the way that he was narrating the lines. It just comes through in this emotional performance from him. Yeah, they were incredible.
PR: Yeah, I cannot agree more. Now, during the epilogue, you introduce Autumn. Does this mean that you're going to extend the series? And are there any other stories or spin-offs that you would like to explore in this world?
BW: I think that my publisher would probably hunt me down if I said too much about about what is happening with Autumn. I do introduce Autumn at the end. I will tell you a little story about Autumn. When I was doing the movie conversations, when I was first having conversations about the movie, the very first person I talked to was Chris McKay, who is the director. I talked to loads of different people. There were a bunch of people that were interested in picking it up for TV or a movie. But Chris was the first person I spoke to and he had a copy of the book in his hand, and he had it annotated and he was asking all of these incredible questions about the book and, like, “Is there anything I would do differently? And what would my vision be like?” We had this incredible conversation.
One question that he asked me stuck with me from that point onwards, and that is, “What happens to Autumn?” I just got these chills, because I was like, “I never really explain what happens to Autumn. Like, what does happen to Autumn?” I had an idea of what would have happened next for her just in the natural, like, “Oh, yeah, she'd probably run off, and do this and do that, and go back to her life or whatever.” But that question really stuck with me. Then when I was writing Scythe & Sparrow, it was still rolling around in my head. What happens to Autumn? I skipped way ahead. I tend to skip around when I'm writing a book. I don't write in a linear fashion. And I just had this idea for the second epilogue and I was like, "That's what happens to Autumn. There it is." Because I had already sold another series to the publisher and I was like, "I think I can put some things together and explain exactly what happens to Autumn Bauer.”
PR: Yay. That's all I can say. And thank you to Chris McKay [laughs]. Now that we have mentioned the Butcher & Blackbird adaptation, are there any adaptation news you can share with us?
BW: Yes, so we just announced publicly the screenwriter. Her name is Laura Kosann. We are super excited to have her starting to write already, so she's working on the script. She's amazing. She's so collaborative. We can text back and forth. She can ask questions. Just really open and wanting to make the vision of what people love so much about the book.
What I really love about her, too, is that she understands the book so deeply, and the romance and the angst and the push and pull of the characters. But she also is able to identify things in the book that I wrote but then kind of would veer away from or thought, "Oh, I could do this, but maybe I won't. Maybe I'll just keep doing this other thing or focus my attention somewhere else." But she was able to identify those little threads and kind of pull them out, and be like, "What if we amped this thing up a few notches?" And it's like, “Yeah, that's super cool.” Because you're dealing with a different medium and you have different challenges, and those could solve some of those challenges, right? I just love how she was able to pick up on things that I had left for myself and never explored, but she has that opportunity to explore them.
"My goal is to always really write complex, multilayered, badass women who often have traumatic pasts, and they are survivors, they're resilient."
When she took me through her vision for the script, obviously some things have to change, because otherwise you would have a 12-hour movie and that would not work. It's a different medium and you have to have different pressures and drivers and things like that. So, some things will change. But I committed to myself, if there's anything where I feel like this doesn't sit right or my instincts are telling me something, then I have to raise my voice right away. But when she took me through that big picture of the script and what she envisioned for different scenes, absolutely nothing felt like that. I didn't have any single reaction where I was like, "I don't think that could work" or "Oh, I'm uncomfortable with that." It was all super amazing. I was just like, "Can we get a script tomorrow?" [laughs]
PR: What has been your involvement so far, if you can tell us?
BW: I am an executive producer on the film, so I am going to be involved in the whole process. Even from the point when we were starting to look for a screenwriter. Chris, the director, he sent me the pitch for basically soliciting interested parties. We went back and forth on that. We had several conversations when they were having pitches from the screenwriters, different people who are throwing their hat in the ring, and we had talked about that. So, I'm involved in all different aspects of the process. Then once we get filming, which will hopefully be in the fall or early winter, then I'll be on set. And yeah, it blows my mind.
PR: You are busy. Hopefully you're squeezing in some time to listen or read. So, I do have to ask, is there anything you've listened to or are looking forward to listening to this year?
BW: I am super looking forward to listening to Not Safe for Work by Nisha J. Tuli. I read the book and I have not listened to it yet. It's not out yet. But I read the book and I loved it, so I would really love to give that a listen once that comes out. There are a few books that are coming out that I've got on my list, actually. Sophie Lark's got a book coming out and I always love her stuff. She is so diverse in how she can go from serial killer romance to fantasy stuff. I want to read or listen to that when that comes out, which is in March, I think. There's a few things upcoming that I'm aiming for once I have time and I'm over this deadline for my next manuscript, which is in a week.
PR: Ooh. All right. Well, before I let you get back to working on your manuscript, I have one last question. If Dr. Kane and Rose could recommend an Audible listen to me, what would it be?
BW: I might need to think about that for a second ... oh, I know! I don't know if it's on Audible yet, but Naomi Loud has Feast of Fools and that's just bonkers. Oh, also Keep Me by Sara Cate. They might like that, because that's pretty spicy. So that would be a good one, yeah. Another one I would recommend is The Book of Azrael by Amber V. Nicole. I think Fionn and Rose would probably be into a bit of very spicy, dark fantasy romance.
PR: Wonderful and great recommendations. Brynne, it has been an absolute pleasure and delight speaking with you today. Thank you so much for taking the time to answer all of my questions.
BW: Thank you so much for having me today.
PR: Of course. Listeners, you can get Scythe & Sparrow along with the rest of the Ruinous Love Trilogy on Audible now. Happy listening.
