Why is it that modern churches seem so successful in introducing people to Jesus but struggle to lead them into a life of true transformation?

Brian Fisher doesn’t hold back as he has done a deep dive on how there is something missing in the church experience: a failure to address the deeper stages of discipleship.

Drawing from his own journey through loss, reflection, and rebuilding, Brian shares his vision for a radically different approach: smaller, intimate communities focused on spiritual formation instead of surface-level engagement.

In this episode, Brian and Matt discuss how “the wall” in the discipleship journey forces us to confront our brokenness and deepen our relationship with Christ.

And Brian introduces the Soil & Roots concept of “Greenhouses,” spaces designed to cultivate deep spiritual growth, and how they differ from traditional small groups.

For anyone longing to go beyond the basics of faith, this episode is a must-listen.

• The Wall and Wilderness: Moving through disorientation is painful, but it’s necessary for deeper growth in Christ.
• Reimagining Discipleship: The first three stages of faith - knowing, learning, and serving - are just the beginning. True transformation happens in stages four, five, and six.
• The Greenhouse Model: Unlike most small groups, greenhouses foster safety, intimacy, and authentic wrestling with God’s truths.
• The Church’s Blind Spot: Modern church structures often focus on attracting crowds but neglect the messy, time-consuming work of deep spiritual formation.
• Hope After Ministry: Brian’s story shows there is life and ministry after vocational leadership - if we’re willing to redefine success on God’s terms.

• "Churches are great at making converts but struggle to make disciples who think, act, and love like Jesus."
• "True spiritual formation happens in the wilderness, not in the crowd."
• "The church should grow smaller, not bigger, if we want to see real transformation."
• "The wall isn’t a punishment - it’s an invitation into God’s deeper love."

• 0:00 – 2:02: The Church’s Failure in Stages Four, Five, and Six of Discipleship
• 2:03 – 5:35: What Is a Greenhouse? Introducing the Model for Deep Spiritual Growth
• 5:36 – 8:29: Why Most Small Groups Aren’t Enough for Real Formation
• 8:30 – 10:49: The Power Struggles in Church Institutions and Why They Resist Change
• 10:50 – 13:37: Wrestling with Faith: The Importance of Vulnerability in Community
• 13:38 – 15:46: Gratitude for the Wilderness: Finding Joy in Suffering
• 15:47 – 19:52: Dredging the Depths: Removing Debris to Create New Life
• 19:53 – 22:38: Becoming Deeper People: Awake to God, Others, Ourselves, and Creation
• 22:39 – 24:54: Inviting People Into the Deep End of Discipleship
• 24:55 – 26:54: Connecting with Soil and Roots

Brian’s insights challenge us to rethink what it means to truly follow Jesus. Whether you’re longing for deeper community, wrestling with your faith, or navigating a wilderness season, this episode provides hope and practical guidance.

• Website: SoilandRoots.org
• Podcast: Soil and Roots (Available on all platforms)
• Substack: Search Soil and Roots for in-depth articles on discipleship

This is part two of Brian’s story. Together with part one, it paints a compelling vision for what the church could become if we embraced the call to deeper discipleship.