Épisodes

  • The development of evolution

    The development of evolution
    Feb 20 2025
    Evolution is not what it used to be. A lot has changed since Darwin's day. In the first half of the 20th century, evolutionary theory was integrated with an emerging understanding of genetics. Late in the 20th century, biologists started taking seriously the idea that organisms don't just adapt to their environments, they change them. Recently, researchers have started to acknowledge the role of culture in evolutionary processes. And so slowly our understanding of evolution has been reconsidered, updated, expanded. And more updates are underway. But it's not just our understanding of evolution that has changed over time. Evolution itself has changed, too. My guest today is Dr. Kevin Lala. Kevin is an evolutionary biologist at the University of St Andrews in Scotland. Over his long career, Kevin has been at the forefront of key debates about—and updates to—evolutionary theory. He's known, for instance, for his pioneering work on niche construction as well as for his work on gene-culture co-evolution. In a new book titled Evolution Evolving, Kevin and his four co-authors present a new synthesis of evolution, one that places developmental processes front and center. Here, Kevin and I sketch the notion of a "developmental bias" and why it's central to this new understanding of evolution. We talk about the orthodox gene-centric way of thinking about development—and what it gets wrong. We discuss so-called exploratory processes in development. We dig into the increasingly popular, but much debated construct of "evolvability." And we consider what this newest update to evolutionary theory might tell us about the origins of human cognition. Along the way, Kevin and I talk about floppy ears in mammals and fragmented faces in fish; symbionts and soft inheritance; Mary Jane West-Eberhard, Richard Lewontin, and August Weismann; development as an artist and evolution as curator; maps; plants; manual dexterity; brain size; and why evolution is a bit like walking on a trampoline. A final reminder about the 2025 Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute, or DISI. DISI is a three-week long summer institute held in St Andrews, Scotland; it's a place for the wide-ranging, transdisciplinary exploration of ideas about mind, cognition, and intelligence. It's a place where early career scholars get to hobnob with thinkers like Kevin Lala, who was a faculty member with us in 2019. There's still time to apply, but do act fast—review of applications begins March 1st. Alright friends, on to my conversation w/ Dr. Kevin Lala. Enjoy! A transcript of this episode will be posted soon. Notes and links 4:00 – A paper describing so-called domestication syndrome. For more on domestication (and self-domestication), see our earlier episode with Dr. Brian Hare. 11:00 – A paper describing cavefish as a new model organism in the study of evolution and development. 15:00 – An influential 2015 paper, led by Dr. Lala, describing the “extended evolutionary synthesis.” 22:00 – A 2016 overview of niche construction theory, led by Dr. Lala. 27:00 – An early report on “lobtail feeding” in humpback whales. 33:00 – A paper describing “gaping behavior” in cichlid fishes. 35:00 – A review of “soft inheritance.” The study showing that mice pass on learned associations to offspring. 41:00 – A study on the gut microbes that allow woodrats to digest toxic creosote. 44:00 – See our earlier episode with Dr. Eric Turkheimer. 50:00 – See Winther’s book, When Maps Become the World. 56:00 – A paper reviewing the idea of “exploratory mechanisms” in development, as well as other ideas associated with the concept of “plasticity-led evolution.” 1:05:00 – A classic paper on the notion of “evolvability.” 1:13:00 – For one example of a “major transitions” framework, see our earlier episode with Dr. Andrew Barron. 1:17:00 – A news article about how dogs developed the ability to digest starch, initially by acquiring symbionts. 1:20:00 – For discussion of the evolution of human brain size, see our earlier episode ‘Fermentation, fire, and our big brains.’ 1:28:00 – A recent review of the idea that humans are “self-domesticated.” Recommendations Developmental Plasticity and Evolution, by Mary Jane West-Eberhard Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute, which is made possible by a generous grant from the John Templeton Foundation to Indiana University. The show is hosted and produced by Kensy Cooperrider, with help from Assistant Producer Urte Laukaityte and with creative support from DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd. Our transcripts are created by Sarah Dopierala. Subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also now subscribe to the Many Minds newsletter here! We welcome your comments, questions, and ...
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    1 h et 37 min
  • String theories

    String theories
    Feb 6 2025
    Where would our species be without string? It's one of our most basic technologies—so basic that it's easy to overlook. But humans have used string—and its cousins rope, yarn, cordage, thread, etc.—for all kinds of purposes, stretching back tens of thousands of years. We've used it for knots and textiles and fishing nets and carrier bags and bow-strings and record-keeping devices. It's one of the most ubiquitous, flexible, and useful technologies we have. But we haven't only put string to practical purposes. We've also long used it to tickle our minds. My guest today is Dr. Roope Kaaronen. Roope is a cognitive anthropologist and postdoc at the University of Helsinki in Finland. Along with an interdisciplinary team, Roope recently conducted two studies that showcase the centrality of string in human culture. One is on the history and diversity of "string figures” (which are visual designs made with a loop of string held between the hands, often known to English speakers as “Cat's Cradle”). The other study is on the history and diversity of knots. Here Roope and I discuss the deep history of string in human culture. We talk about the seemingly universal spread of string figures across the globe. We zoom in on one string figure in particular—the Jacob's ladder—which seems to be the most widespread string figure of all, despite its complexity. We talk about how both knots and string figures are related to the branch of mathematics known as “topology," and about how knots and string figures have evolved under different constraints. Finally, we discuss what our fascination with string designs might tell us about the human mind. And we lament the fact that much of our string-based cultural heritage is headed—quite rapidly—for extinction. Just a reminder that applications are now open for the 2025 Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute or DISI. If you are an early career researcher and you like this show, you would probably like DISI. Actually, fun fact: our guest today, Roope, is a DISI alum. We met at the Institute a couple years ago and I've followed his work ever since. That should give you some flavor for the people who attend. In any case, for more info, check out disi.org—that’s d-i-s-i. org. Alright friends, on to my conversation with Dr. Roope Kaaronen. Enjoy! A transcript of this episode is available here. Notes and links 3:00 – The 2020 paper reporting the use of string by Neanderthals. 8:00 – A paper describing the Antrea Net and its discovery. 10:00 – On the issue of gender bias in the study of textiles, see Virginia Postrel’s book, The Fabric of Civilization. 12:00 – Dr. Kaaronen’s other ethnomathematical projects include work on measurement across cultures. 16:30 – The website of the International String Figure Association. 19:30 – The 1969 paper first introducing the Standard Cross-Cultural Sample. 22:20 – A step-by-step explanation for how to make Jacob’s Ladder. 30:30 – A step-by-step explanation for how to make the Swan. 38:00 – An example of a string figure that uses the Caroline Extension. 40:35 – A video demonstrating the string figure game of Cat’s Cradle, which is played with a partner. 44:30 – A preprint of the knot study by Dr. Kaaronen and colleagues. 45:00 – The website of HRAF—the Human Relations Area Files—is here. 49:00 – A step-by-step explanation for how to make the knot known as the “sheet bend.” 55:00 – An interactive article about what is known about Incan khipus. 59:30 – The “bible of knots” is the Ashley Book of Knots. 1:08:30 – An illustrated article on the so-called Austronesian expansion. 1:16:00 – An image of the ochre stone from 70,000 years ago, found at Blombos cave, featuring net-like imagery. A study finding sensitivity to abstract shapes in humans but not baboons. Recommendations The Fabric of Civilization, by Virginia Postrel String Figures: A Study of Cat’s Cradle in Many Lands, by Caroline Furness Jayne WhyKnot (YouTube channel) Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute, which is made possible by a generous grant from the John Templeton Foundation to Indiana University. The show is hosted and produced by Kensy Cooperrider, with help from Assistant Producer Urte Laukaityte and with creative support from DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd. Our transcripts are created by Sarah Dopierala. Subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also now subscribe to the Many Minds newsletter here! We welcome your comments, questions, and suggestions. Feel free to email us at: manymindspodcast@gmail.com. For updates about the show, visit our website or follow us on Twitter (@ManyMindsPod) or Bluesky (@manymindspod.bsky.social).
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    1 h et 21 min
  • The other half of the brain

    The other half of the brain
    Jan 23 2025
    Neurons have long enjoyed a kind of rock star status. We think of them as the most fundamental units of the brain—the active cells at the heart of brain function and, ultimately, at the heart of behavior, learning, and more. But neurons are only part of the story—about half the story, it turns out. The other half of the brain is made up of cells called glia. Glia were long thought to be important structurally but not particularly exciting—basically stage-hands there to support the work of the neurons. But in recent decades, at least among neuroscientists, that view has faded. In our understanding of the brain, glia have gone from stage-hands to co-stars. My guest today is Dr. Nicola Allen. Nicola is a molecular neuroscientist and Associate Professor at the Salk Institute in La Jolla, California. She and her lab study the role of glial cells—especially astrocytes—in brain function and dysfunction. Here, Nicola and I talk about how our understanding and appreciation of glial cells has changed. We do a bit of Brain Cells 101, reviewing the main division between neurons and glia and then sketching the subtypes within each category. We discuss the different shapes and sizes of glial cells, as well as the different functions. Glia are an industrious bunch. They’re involved in synapse formation and pruning, the production of myelin, the repair of injuries, and more. We also talk about how glial cells have been implicated in various forms of brain dysfunction, from neurodegeneration to neurodevelopmental syndromes. And how, as a result, these cells are attracting serious attention as a site for therapeutic intervention. Well, it's that time of year again folks. Applications are now open for the 2025 Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute, or DISI. This is an intense program—highly interdisciplinary, highly international—for scholars and storytellers interested in all forms and facets of intelligence. If you like thinking about minds, if you like thinking about humans and animals and plants and AIs and collectives and ways they’re alike and different—you would probably like DISI. For more info, check out disi.org—that's D-I-S-I dot org. Review of applications begins March 1st, so don't dally too too long. Alright friends—on to my conversation with Dr. Nicola Allen. Enjoy! A transcript of this episode is available here. Notes and links 3:00 – Correction: “glia” actually comes from the Greek—not the Latin—for “glue.” 3:30 – See this short primer on glia by Dr. Allen and Dr. Ben Barres. For a bit of the history of how glial cells were originally conceived, see this article on Ramón y Cajal’s contributions to glia research. 10:00 – On the nascent field of “neuroimmunology,” see here. 14:00 – On the idea that “90% of brain cells are glia” see this article by (former guest) Suzana Herculano-Houzel. 18:00 – The root “oligo” in “oligodendrocyte” means “few” (and is thus the same as the “olig” in, e.g., “oligarchy"). It is not related to the “liga-” in “ligament.” 28:00 – On the idea that the glia-neuron ratio changes as brains grow more complex, see again the article by Dr. Herculano-Houzel. 30:00 – See Dr. Allen’s paper on the idea of glia as “architects.” See also Dr. Allen’s paper on the idea of glia as “sculptors.” 33:00 – See Dr. Allen’s paper on the idea of the “tripartite synapse.” 42:00 – A recent paper reviewing the phenomenon of adult neurogenesis. 48:00 – See Dr. Allen’s recent review of the role of astrocytes in neurodegeneration. 51:30 – A recent article on the roles of APOE in Alzheimer’s. Recommendations Glia (2nd edition), edited by Beth Stevens, Kelly R. Monk, and Marc R. Freeman Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute, which is made possible by a generous grant from the John Templeton Foundation to Indiana University. The show is hosted and produced by Kensy Cooperrider, with help from Assistant Producer Urte Laukaityte and with creative support from DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd. Our transcripts are created by Sarah Dopierala. Subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also now subscribe to the Many Minds newsletter here! We welcome your comments, questions, and suggestions. Feel free to email us at: manymindspodcast@gmail.com. For updates about the show, visit our website or follow us on Twitter (@ManyMindsPod) or Bluesky (@manymindspod.bsky.social).
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    1 h
  • A paradox of learning

    A paradox of learning
    Jan 9 2025
    How do we learn? Usually from experience, of course. Maybe we visit some new place, or encounter a new tool or trick. Or perhaps we learn from someone else—from a teacher or friend or YouTube star who relays some shiny new fact or explanation. These are the kinds of experiences you probably first think of when you think of learning. But we can also learn in another way: simply by thinking. Sometimes we can just set our minds to work—just let the ideas already in our heads tumble around and spark off each other—and, as if by magic, come away with a new understanding of the world. But how does this happen exactly? And does it only happen in humans? My guest today is Dr. Tania Lombrozo. Tania is a Professor of Psychology at Princeton University; she and her research group study learning, reasoning, explanation, belief, and more. In a recent paper, Tania outlines this puzzling alternative form of learning—learning by thinking, as it’s known—and presents evidence that it happens in both humans and AIs. In this conversation, Tania and I talk about her longstanding work on explanation, and how it led her to study this less-obvious form of learning. We zoom in on four flavors of learning by thinking—learning through explanation, through simulation, through analogy, and through reasoning. We talk about the evidence that machines also learn in this way, and we consider whether animals could, too. We discuss how to resolve the paradox at the heart of "learning by thinking": how it could be that reshuffling old bits of knowledge can actually lead to new understanding. Along the way, Tania and I touch on: chain-of-thought prompting in LLMs, the Reddit community 'Explain Like I'm Five,’ the illusion of explanatory depth, the power of thought experiments, Darwin and Galileo, imagination and rationalization, how psychology and philosophy complement each other, and whether we can also learn—not just by thinking in our proverbial armchairs—but also by writing and talking. So, happy 2025, friends! We've got some great stuff lined up for the coming year. If you like what we're doing with the show, we would—as ever—appreciate your support. And the main way you can support us is just by helping us get the word out—by telling a friend about us, or a colleague, or a student, or your thousands of social media followers. Alright, without further ado, on to my conversation with Dr. Tania Lombrozo. Enjoy! A transcript of this episode is available here. Notes and links 3:30 – An influential early paper on “chain-of-thought prompting” in Large Language Models. A recent preprint by a team, including Dr. Lombrozo, exploring the cases where “chain-of-thought prompting” actually impairs performance in LLMs. 8:00 – For some of Dr. Lombrozo’s important earlier work on explanation, see here and here. 11:15 – The Reddit community ‘Explain Like I’m Five.’ 13:00 – An early paper on the “curse of knowledge”—the difficulty of ignoring what you know. 19:00 – Dr. Lombrozo’s recent review article on “learning by thinking” is here. Another article of hers on the same topic is here. 20:00 – The original report of the “self-explanation” effect. The original report of the “illusion of explanatory depth.” 30:00 – For a basic description of Galileo’s falling bodies thought experiment, see here. A discussion of this thought experiment by philosopher Tamar Gendler. 38:00 – For analysis of Darwin’s analogy between artificial and natural selection, see here and here. 42:00 – A paper on rationalization by Fiery Cushman. 48:00 – A paper from Dr. Lombrozo’s lab on “need for explanation.” The original paper describing the construct of “need for cognition.” 52:00 – The original report of “framing effects” by Tversky and Kahneman. 54:00 – A paper by Annette Karmiloff-Smith discussing “representational redescription.” 1:02:00 – A recent overview of issues surrounding “explainable” AI. Recommendations Alison Gopnik, Andrew Meltzoff, & Patricia Kuhl, The Scientist in the Crib Frank Keil, Wonder: Childhood and the Lifelong Love of Science Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute, which is made possible by a generous grant from the John Templeton Foundation to Indiana University. The show is hosted and produced by Kensy Cooperrider, with help from Assistant Producer Urte Laukaityte and with creative support from DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd. Our transcripts are created by Sarah Dopierala. Subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also now subscribe to the Many Minds newsletter here! We welcome your comments, questions, and suggestions. Feel free to email us at: manymindspodcast@gmail.com. For updates about the show, visit our ...
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    1 h et 7 min
  • From the archive: The octopus and the android

    From the archive: The octopus and the android
    Dec 25 2024
    Happy holidays, friends! We will be back with a new episode in January 2025. In the meantime, enjoy this favorite from our archives! ----- [originally aired Jun 14, 2023] Have you heard of Octopolis? It’s a site off the coast of Australia where octopuses come together. It’s been described as a kind of underwater "settlement" or "city." Now, smart as octopuses are, they are not really known for being particularly sociable. But it seems that, given the right conditions, they can shift in that direction. So it's not a huge leap to wonder whether these kinds of cephalopod congregations could eventually give rise to something else—a culture, a language, maybe something like a civilization. This is the idea at the center of Ray Nayler's new book, The Mountain in the Sea. It's both a thriller of sorts and a novel of ideas; it’s set in the near future, in the Con Dao archipelago of Vietnam. It grapples with the nature of intelligence and meaning, with the challenges of interspecies communication and companionship, and ultimately with what it means to be human. Here, Ray and I talk about how he got interested in cephalopods and how he came to know the Con Dao archipelago. We discuss some of the choices he made as an author—choices about what drives the octopuses in his book to develop symbols and about what those symbols are like. We consider the major human characters in his book, in particular two ambitious researchers who embody very different approaches to understanding minds. We also talk a fair bit about AI—another central character in the book, after all, is a super-intelligent android. Along the way, Ray and I touch on Arrival, biosemiotics, the nature of symbols, memory and storytelling, embodiment, epigenetics, cephalopod camouflage, exaptation, and the sandbox that is speculative fiction. This episode is obviously something a little different for us. Ray is a novelist, after all, but he’s also an intellectual omnivore, and this conversation, maybe more than any other we’ve had on the show, spans three major branches of mind—human, animal, and machine. If you enjoy this episode, note that The Mountain in the Sea just came out in paperback, with a jaw-droppingly cool cover, I’ll add. I highly recommend that you check it out. One more thing, while I have you: If you're enjoying Many Minds, we would be most grateful for your help in getting the word out. You might consider sharing the show with a friend or a colleague, writing us a review on Apple Podcasts, or leaving us a rating on Spotify or Apple. All this would really help us grow our audience. Alright friends, on to my conversation with Ray Nayler. Enjoy! A transcript of this episode is available here. Notes and links 8:30 – For the review of The Mountain in the Sea in question, see here. 14:00 – Con Dao is a national park in Vietnam. 17:00 – For our previous episode about cephalopods, see here. 19:00 – For a book-length introduction to biosemiotics, see here. 24:00 – A video of Japanese macaques washing sweet potatoes. 26:30 – For discussion of the human case, in which environmental pressures of some kind may have propelled cooperation, see our episode with Michael Tomasello. 29:00 – A popular article about RNA editing in cephalopods. 35:00 – A video of the “passing cloud” phenomenon in cuttlefish. A brief article about the phenomenon. A video showing other forms of camouflage in octopuses. 41:00 – An experimental exploration of the movement from “iconic” to “symbolic” communication in humans. 44:00 – A popular article about the communication system used in the movie Arrival. 49:00 – One source of inspiration for Ray’s book was Eduardo Kohn’s How Forests Think. 1:00:00 – An article on the idea of “architects” and “gardeners” among writers. 1:05:00 – Ray’s story ‘The Disintegration Loops’ is available here. 1:11:00 – Ray’s story ‘The Summer Castle’ is available here. 1:13:00 – A popular article about the phenomenon of highly superior autobiographical memory. An essay about the idea that faulty memory is a feature rather than a bug. 1:18:00 – Ray’s story ‘Muallim’ is available here. Recommendations Ways of Being, by James Bridle Living in Data, by Jer Thorp Follow Ray on Twitter. Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute, which is made possible by a generous grant from the Templeton World Charity Foundation to UCLA. It is hosted and produced by Kensy Cooperrider, with help from Assistant Producer Urte Laukaityte and with creative support from DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd. Our transcripts are created by Sarah Dopierala. Subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also now subscribe to the ...
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    1 h et 26 min
  • Your brain on language

    Your brain on language
    Dec 12 2024
    Using language is a complex business. Let's say you want to understand a sentence. You first need to parse a sequence of sounds—if the sentence is spoken—or images—if it's signed or written. You need to figure out the meanings of the individual words and then you need to put those meanings together to form a bigger whole. Of course, you also need to think about the larger context—the conversation, the person you're talking to, the kind of situation you're in. So how does the brain do all of this? Is there just one neural system that deals with language or several? Do different parts of the brain care about different aspects of language? And, more basically: What scientific tools and techniques should we be using to try to figure this all out? My guest today is Dr. Ev Fedorenko. Ev is a cognitive neuroscientist at MIT, where she and her research group study how the brains supports language and complex thought. Ev and her colleagues recently wrote a detailed overview of their work on the language network—the specialized system in our brain that underlies our ability to use language. This network has some features you might have expected, and—as we’ll see—other features you probably didn't. Here, Ev and I talk about the history of our effort to understand the neurobiology of language. We lay out the current understanding of the language network, and its relationship to the brain areas historically associated with language abilities—especially Broca's area and Wernicke's area. We talk about whether the language network can be partitioned according to the subfields of linguistics, such as syntax and semantics. We discuss the power and limitations of fMRI, and the advantages of the single-subject analyses that Ev and her lab primarily use. We consider how the language network interfaces with other major neural networks—for instance, the theory of mind network and the so-called default network. And we discuss what this all tells us about the longstanding controversial claim that language is primarily for thinking rather than communicating. Along the way, Ev and I touch on: some especially interesting brains; plasticity and redundancy; the puzzle of lateralization; polyglots; aphasia; the localizer method; the decline of certain Chomskyan perspectives; the idea that brain networks are "natural kinds"; the heart of the language network; and the question of what the brain may tell us—if anything—about how language evolved. Alright friends, this is a fun one. On to my conversation with Dr. Ev Fedorenko. Enjoy! A transcript of this episode is available here. Notes and links 3:00 – The article by a New York Times reporter who is missing a portion of her temporal lobe. The website for the Interesting Brains project. 5:30 – A recent paper from Dr. Fedorenko’s lab on the brains of three siblings, two of whom were missing portions of their brains. 13:00 – Broca’s original 1861 report. 18:00 – Many of Noam Chomsky’s ideas about the innateness of language and the centrality of syntax are covered in his book Language and Mind, among other publications. 19:30 – For an influential critique of the tradition of localizing functions in the brain, see William R. Uttal’s The New Phrenology. 23:00 – The new review paper by Dr. Fedorenko and colleagues on the language network. 26:00 – For more discussion of the different formats or modalities of language, see our earlier episode with Dr. Neil Cohn. 30:00 – A classic paper by Herbert Simon on the “architecture of complexity.” 31:00 – For one example of a naturalistic, “task-free” study that reveals the brain’s language network, see here. 33:30 – See the recent paper arguing “against cortical reorganization.” 33:00 – For more on the concept of “natural kind” in philosophy, see here. 38:00 – On the “multiple-demand network,” see a recent study by Dr. Fedorenko and colleagues. 41:00 – For a study from Dr. Fedorenko’s lab finding that syntax and semantics are distributed throughout the language network, see here. For an example of work in linguistics that does not make a tidy distinction between syntax and semantics, see here. 53:30 – See Dr. Fedorenko’s recent article on the history of individual-subject analyses in neuroscience. 1:01:00 – For an in-depth treatment of one localizer used in Dr. Fedorenko’s research, see here. 1:03:30 – A paper by Dr. Stephen Wilson and colleagues, describing recovery of language ability following stroke as a function of the location of the lesion within the language network. 1:04:20 – A paper from Dr. Fedorenko’s lab on the small language networks of polyglots. 1:09:00 – For more on the Visual Word Form Area (or VWFA), see here. For discussion of Exner’s Area, see here. 1:14:30 – For a discussion of the brain’s so-called default network, see here....
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    1 h et 33 min
  • Nestcraft

    Nestcraft
    Nov 27 2024
    How do birds build their nests? By instinct, of course—at least that's what the conventional wisdom tells us. A swallow builds a swallow's nest; a robin builds a robin's nest. Every bird just follows the rigid template set down in its genes. But over the course of the last couple of decades, scientists have begun to take a closer look at nests—they've weighed and measured them, they've filmed the building process. And the conventional wisdom just doesn't hold up. These structures vary in all kinds of ways, even within a species. They're shaped by experience, by learning, by cultural tradition. When we look at a bird's nest, we're looking at the product of a flexible mind. My guest today is Dr. Susan Healy. Sue is a Professor in the School of Biology at the University of St Andrews and an expert in birds—their behavior, their cognition, and their evolution. For more than a decade now, Sue has been pioneering a new chapter in the study of birds' nests. Here, Sue and I talk about some of the most impressive nests (as well as some of the least impressive). We do a bit of Birds' Nests 101—the different forms they take, the functions they serve, which sex does the building, how these structures evolved, and more. We dig into the mounting evidence that birds are in fact quite flexible in their building practices, that they learn from others and from their own experience. We discuss recent evidence from Sue's team that cultural traditions shape the weaver nests of the Kalahari. And we talk about what nests might have in common with songs and tools. Along the way, we touch on: pigeon nests and hummingbird nests, dinosaur nests and chimpanzee nests; Alfred Russel Wallace; commonalities in the techniques of human weavers and weaver birds; whether bird personality might be reflected in nest style; the brain basis of nest-building; and a whole lot else. Hope you enjoy this one, friends. On to my conversation with Dr. Sue Healy. A transcript of this episode is availalble here. Notes and links 2:30 – An example of a post on the (seemingly inadequate) nests of pigeons. 7:30 – An article featuring a variety of weaverbird nests. 10:30 – Alfred Russel Wallace’s essay on birds' nests is available here. 15:00 – A paper from another branch of Dr. Healy’s work, on hummingbirds. 16:00 – The 1902 book by Charles Dixon on the science of “caliology.” 17:00 – An example of research done by the Colliases on weavers. 19:00 – For an up-to-date primer on birds’ nests—covering a number of the questions we discuss here—see Dr. Healy’s recent primer. 22:30 – An article about hummingbird eggs. 28:30 – A paper by Dr. Healy and colleagues on the use of human materials in birds’ nests. Our episode on animal medication is here. 31:30 – An article about bowerbirds and how they decorate their bowers. 35:00 – An article on the evolution of birds’ nests, covering the question of what dinosaur nests were like. 43:00 – A paper by Dr. Healy and colleagues on the impact of temperature and earlier breeding success on nest size. 51:00 ­– For more discussion of personality in animals, including in clonal fish, see our episode with Kate Laskowski. 55:00 – A study by Dr. Healy and colleagues showing that zebra finches build nests that match the color of the walls. 58:00 – A study by Dr. Healy and colleagues looking at how zebra finches learn aspects of nest-building from familiar individuals. 59:00 – A study by Dr. Healy and colleagues, led by Maria Tello-Ramos, about architectural traditions in an African sociable weaver species. 1:07:00 – An article by Michael Arbib, Dr. Healy, and colleagues on connections between tool use, language, and nest-building. 1:11:00 – An initial study on the brain basis of nest-building in zebra finches. A further study on the same topic. 1:12:30 – A paper by Hopi E. Hoekstra and colleagues on the genetics of burrow-building in deer mice. 1:14:00 – An exploration of the idea that humans initially learned their weaving skills from weaver birds. Recommendations Books by Mike Hansell (see here, here, and here) Birds’ nests, Charles Dixon Avian architecture, Peter Goodfellow Animal architects, James Gould & Carol Gould Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute, which is made possible by a generous grant from the John Templeton Foundation to Indiana University. The show is hosted and produced by Kensy Cooperrider, with help from Assistant Producer Urte Laukaityte and with creative support from DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd. Our transcripts are created by Sarah Dopierala. Subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also now subscribe to the Many Minds newsletter here! We welcome your ...
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    1 h et 20 min
  • Animal, heal thyself

    Animal, heal thyself
    Nov 14 2024
    What happens to animals when they get sick? If they’re pets or livestock, we probably call the vet. And the vet may give them drugs or perform a procedure. But what about wild animals? Do they just languish in misery? Well, not so much. It turns out that animals—from bees to butterflies, porcupines to primates—medicate themselves. They seek out bitter plants, they treat wounds, they amputate limbs, they eat clay—the list goes on. This all raises an obvious question: How do they know to do this? How do they know what they know about healing and medicine? It also invites a related question: How do we humans know what we know? My guests today are Dr. Jaap De Roode and Dr. Michael Huffman. Jaap is a biologist at Emory University, and has studied animal medication in insects; he’s also the author of a forthcoming book about animal medication across the tree of life. Mike is a primatologist at the University of Nagasaki, and made some of the very first observations about animal self-medication in chimpanzees in the 1980s. Here, Jaap, Mike, and I talk about how they found their way into this field, in both cases kind of by accident. We discuss what defines animal medication generally as well as what defines its more specific subtypes—social medication, allomedication, prophylactic medication, and others. We consider how animals know what they know about healing—whether these medicinal behaviors are mostly driven by innate tendencies, by individual experimentation, by social learning, or by some combination. We talk about the evidence that many of the medical insights that humans have had over the years actually began with observations of animals. Along the way, we touch on medicinal amputation and medicinal cannibalism, geophagy, leaf-folding in primates, animal quackery, bear medicine, why lemurs rub themselves with millipedes, and the anti-parasitic power of cigarette butts. Alright, friends, this is a fun one. Enjoy! A transcript of this episode is available here. Notes and links 3:00 – A paper describing how birds in Mexico City line their nests with cigarette butts. A follow-up experiment showing that they do so in response to increased presence of parasites. 7:30 – Dr. Huffman’s original study of self-medication by a chimpanzee, using Vernonia amygdalina in Tanzania. 15:00 – Dr. de Roode’s study on “transgenerational medicine” in monarch butterflies. 20:00 – For an overview of animal medication, including definitions and examples of its subtypes, see this recent primer by Dr. de Roode and Dr. Huffman. 25:00 – The recent study on “medicinal amputation” in ants. The recent study on “medicinal cannibalism” in ants. 30:00 – For an overview of medication in insects, see this recent paper by Dr. de Roode and colleagues. 34:00 – The paper by Mascaro and colleagues showing that chimpanzees treat wounds (to the self and others) by applying insects. 38:00 – A recent review of geophagy—soil eating—in primates by Paula Pebsworth, Dr. Huffman, and colleagues. 43:00 – A paper by Dr. Huffman and colleagues on chimpanzee leaf-swallowing in the wild. Dr. Huffman later did a series of experimental studies on this behavior, investigating the role of social learning—see here and here. 46:00 – An article on how goats learn to eat what they eat. 52:00 – An article describing the medicinal properties of Vernonia amygdalina. 54:00 ­– A study showing that lemurs rub each other with millipedes in a possible case of animal medication. 57:00 – A paper by Dr. Huffman in which he describes the use of mulengelele by a sick porcupine. A recent review by Dr. Huffman of what traditional healers have learned from observations of animal medication. 1:01:00 – An article about propolis and its medicinal use in bees; an article about its medicinal potential in humans. Recommendations Doctors by Nature, Jaap de Roode (forthcoming) Wild Health, Cindy Engel Nourishment, Fred Provenza ‘Five clever animals that treat and prevent their own illnesses,’ National Geographic Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute, which is made possible by a generous grant from the John Templeton Foundation to Indiana University. The show is hosted and produced by Kensy Cooperrider, with help from Assistant Producer Urte Laukaityte and with creative support from DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd. Our transcripts are created by Sarah Dopierala. Subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also now subscribe to the Many Minds newsletter here! We welcome your comments, questions, and suggestions. Feel free to email us at: manymindspodcast@gmail.com. For updates about the show, visit our website or follow us on ...
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    1 h et 8 min