Épisodes

  • Kyle Thiermann — Deadlines, Mentors, Curiosity, and the Craft of Connection (#94)

    Kyle Thiermann — Deadlines, Mentors, Curiosity, and the Craft of Connection (#94)
    Nov 18 2025
    About KyleKyle Thiermann is a professional big-wave surfer, journalist, and creative director whose career bridges storytelling, advertising, and adventure. He’s written for Men’s Health, Surfer, and Outside Magazine, and helped shape campaigns for brands like Patagonia, Yeti, and Mudwater, with his ads and viral spots reaching over 100 million people. Kyle is also the author of One Last Question Before You Go: Why You Should Interview Your Parents Now, a deeply personal exploration of family, curiosity, and conversation. In this episode, Justin and Kyle dive into the fear that drives creativity, the lessons of surfing six-story waves, and how to use curiosity and courage to build a more meaningful creative life.Think Like A Game Designer is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Ah-ha! Justin’s TakeawaysDeadlines create gravity: Surrounding yourself with people you respect and setting clear deadlines are two of the most powerful tools for getting things done—it is the engine of creative work, which turn ambition into action and ensure you finish what you start. Proximity is an accelerant: Kyle’s learned, both in the ocean and in his creative career, that the fastest way to improve is to surround yourself with people already doing the thing you’re learning. Mentorship and shared goals create a rhythm of steady progress that’s hard to find alone.Better questions equal better understanding: We’re trained to have answers, but not to ask better questions and that’s where understanding truly lives. Whether you’re exploring a design challenge or rebuilding a relationship curiosity has the power to turn conversation into insight. Kyle’s book about interviewing his parents is a masterclass in curiosity.Show Notes“The power of deadlines and more specifically, the fear of disappointing people I respect has driven my career.” (00:04:55)We start by talking about the writing group where Kyle and I met, guided by New York Times best-selling author Neil Strauss. Together we dig into how essential structure and accountability are for any creative project including the value of mentors, peers, and most of all, deadlines. If you’ve listened to this podcast before, you’ve heard me say it: deadlines are magic. They turn vague ambition into finished work.“Find the people that are doing the thing and hang out with them as much as possible.” (00:15:58)Kyle connects his life as a big-wave surfer to his creative process, showing that fear and mastery follow the same pattern. Whether you’re paddling into six-story waves or starting a new creative career, the fastest way to grow is to surround yourself with people already doing what you aspire to do. Mentorship, proximity, and shared accountability accelerate progress more than any course or tutorial ever could. “Copywriting is much more like stand-up comedy, where you’re trying to take an idea and distill it down to its most essential form that’s going to get someone’s attention and connect them to this thing that you are selling.” (00:34:49)Kyle compares copywriting to stand-up comedy and it’s a perfect analogy. Both rely on timing, clarity, and emotion. Every word has to earn its place. For designers, writers, and storytellers, the lesson is simple: your job isn’t to explain, it’s to distill. When you can make someone feel something in a single line, you’ve revealed its essence, making it easier for your audience to understand, and therefore, to buy.“We’re taught to have the right answers, but never taught to have the right questions.” (00:51:56)Kyle wrote a book about interviewing his partents. His book grew out of realizing that curiosity—especially toward the people closest to us—is a learned skill. We train for answers, but not for questions, and that leaves entire parts of our relationships unexplored. As Kyle discovered, interviewing is about transforming judgment into curiosity. Asking better questions of our parents, our collaborators, or ourselves is how we rediscover the people we thought we already knew.* Kyle’s Upcoming Book: https://geni.us/onelastqbeforeyougo* Kyle’s Website: https://www.kylethiermann.com/ This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit justingarydesign.substack.com/subscribe
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    1 h et 17 min
  • Touko Tahkokallio — Curiosity, Physics, and the Power of Mental Playtesting (#94)

    Touko Tahkokallio — Curiosity, Physics, and the Power of Mental Playtesting (#94)
    Nov 6 2025

    Touko Tahkokallio is one of the rare designers who has mastered both tabletop and digital worlds. Starting out as a theoretical physicist, Touko shifted careers to follow his passion for play. First by designing acclaimed board games like Eclipse, then shaping some of the biggest mobile hits of all time at Supercell, including Hay Day, Boom Beach, and Brawl Stars. In 2022, he co-founded a mobile game studio Stellar Core which he is the chief creative officer.

    In this episode, we explore the hidden value of juggling multiple projects, how to prototype without rules or components, and why a playful mindset is essential, especially when the work gets tough.



    This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit justingarydesign.substack.com/subscribe
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    1 h et 14 min
  • Jordan Weisman — From Battletech to Shadowrun: The Power of Curiosity and Collaboration (#93)

    Jordan Weisman — From Battletech to Shadowrun: The Power of Curiosity and Collaboration (#93)
    Oct 16 2025
    About this EpisodeThis episode is a little different from the usual Think Like a Game Designer conversation. Instead of a freeform discussion, I came prepared with a curated list of questions to guide the conversation, giving us a structured look into Jordan’s creative process, his philosophies on innovation, and the lessons he’s learned over decades of building worlds. The result is a fast-paced, insight-packed episode that feels like sitting in on a masterclass in game design.About Jordan WeismanJordan Weisman is a legendary figure in interactive entertainment, whose career spans tabletop games, video games, theme parks, and beyond. As the creator of Battletech, Shadowrun, and Crimson Skies, and the founder of iconic companies like FASA and WizKids, Jordan has shaped generations of players and creators alike. His work is defined by boundless curiosity, fearless experimentation, and a lifelong commitment to collaborative storytelling.In this episode, Jordan and I explore what it means to think small, fail boldly, and keep learning no matter how much success you’ve had. We discuss how curiosity drives innovation, why emotional courage is more important than financial risk, and how respect—for yourself, your team, and your audience—is at the heart of great creative work. Whether you’re just starting your design journey or looking to rekindle your passion after decades in the industry, Jordan’s insights offer a masterclass in staying creative for life.Think Like A Game Designer is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Justin’s QuestionsWhat’s something that you’re passionate about outside of your career, and what do you love about it? (00:01:33)* During the pandemic, he rediscovered model building and diorama crafting, a childhood hobby that brings him therapeutic joy.* He enjoys it because it’s tangible, visual storytelling where you can actually see progress, a much different process than game design, which often feels abstract or slow.What do you love about that kind of model building and creating? (00:04:05)* It aligns with Jordan’s love of world-building and storytelling when creating small, detailed scenes that tell a story visually.* It’s satisfying because each session produces visible progress, reinforcing creativity and immersion.What is advice that you would give to someone that’s just starting out in your industry? (00:04:06)* Think small. Beginners often aim for massive projects like the ones they admire.* Start with something you can finish using your own limited resources.* Completion and execution teach more than ideas ever will.* Focus on learning through doing, not imagining.Now let’s flip to the other side of the equation: what do you see as an important lesson that industry veterans need to learn? Or put another way, what advice do you think your older self might give to you? (00:06:30) * Avoid hubris. Experience can blind you. Everything you know might be wrong.* Listen to young minds. Youth brings creativity because it hasn’t learned what’s supposedly impossible.* Over time, past failures make people too cautious; veterans must keep their beginner’s mindset.* Innovation demands courage to look foolish publicly; fear of embarrassment kills creativity.* Stay humble, keep experimenting, and reassess old assumptions regularly.Are there any practices or rituals or ways that you try to keep yourself in that beginner’s mind? How can one get the advantages of experience and minimize the disadvantages? (00:08:09)* You must be willing to “go face first into the mud.”* As he said in the previous question, public embarrassment is the price of innovation.* Surround yourself with young thinkers, question assumptions, and resist dismissing ideas based on past failures.* Always check whether past lessons still apply, because markets and contexts change. Jordan gives an example of a failed company born from his overconfidence, where he didn’t re-research the market because he assumed he already knew it.What do you consider the most important skills to cultivate for your profession, and how do you cultivate these skills? (00:15:13)* Endless curiosity: Study adjacent fields like comics, fiction, tech—anything that feeds creative cross-pollination.* Build a box: Instead of “thinking outside the box,” define constraints clearly to evaluate ideas. For example: He designed Mage Knight by creating a checklist of problems (ease of entry, low cost, retailer needs) and solving within that “box.”* He values self-education: when he didn’t know toy manufacturing, he paid a small company to teach him the process.So let’s get to the areas where the industry or you have been dead wrong. What common advice do you hear about your industry that is dead? (00:24:26)* “Nothing is ever dead.” Genres, mechanics, and IPs always come back (vinyl, RPGs, etc.) * When people say something...
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    53 min
  • Jonathan Grant — Critics, Experiments, Secrets, and the Business of Play (#92)

    Jonathan Grant — Critics, Experiments, Secrets, and the Business of Play (#92)
    Sep 23 2025

    About Jonathan

    Jonathan Grant is a creative director at Zynga, founder of Orbital Games, and co-host of We Thought It Would Be Easy with Jordan Weisman. His career spans startups, acquisitions, and AAA environments, where he’s pitched ideas in Zynga boardrooms, built risky new projects, and collaborated with legends of the industry. Jonathan’s work is defined by his willingness to experiment, his honesty about failure, and his belief that great games hide secrets waiting to be discovered. In this episode, we dive into what it means to make the right bets, how to use criticism to grow, and why experimentation and mystery are essential tools in game design

    Think Like A Game Designer is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

    Ah-ha! Justin’s Takeaways

    * Your Critics Are Right About You: Jonathan challenges us to let go of ego by acknowledging that criticism often contains truth. Instead of fighting it, use it as fuel to grow. Accepting this mindset helps designers take risks, embrace feedback, and move forward without fear of failure.

    * The Power of Experimentation: At Zynga, Jonathan saw firsthand how structured experimentation can refine ideas—sometimes running a dozen tests at once. The key lesson: experimentation validates and sharpens vision, but it should never replace it. Use data to guide improvement, not dictate creativity.

    * The Purpose of Gameplay is to Hide Secrets: Jonathan believes the most memorable games invite players to discover hidden layers. Secrets create mystery, turning mechanics into worlds worth revisiting. As designers, we should craft experiences that reward curiosity, giving players reasons to return again and again.

    Show Notes

    "Pain isn’t bad. Damage is bad." (00:17:57)

    This framing really resonated with me. Creative projects often hurt, the late nights, the tough feedback, the near-misses, but that’s not the same as damage. Damage is when you burn out, ruin relationships, or risk your financial stability. Learning to distinguish between the two is essential. Pain can be a teacher or a compass; damage is a warning sign.

    "Your critics are right about you." (00:27:14)

    It’s a hard truth, but Jonathan is right. The ego wants to believe that critics don’t understand us, yet their words often hold a kernel of truth. When I apply this mindset, I can let go of defensiveness and see criticism as fuel for growth. Its a reminder to use feedback to sharpen both my work and myself.

    "The thing that Zynga was incredible at was experimentation… sometimes a dozen experiments at once." (00:50:37)

    At Zynga, experiments weren’t random, instead they were structured, frequent, and scaled. As a designer, I take from this that experimentation should validate vision, not replace it. Numbers can guide us toward sharper solutions, but they can’t generate the spark that makes a game truly special.

    "Philosophically, the purpose of gameplay is to hide secrets." (01:08:29)

    I love this idea. Secrets are what keep players coming back: hidden interactions, unexpected depth, and little discoveries that reward curiosity. A great tip for RPG game masters is to place a secret in every location so players always have something to unravel, with each secret offering a way to draw them back on track. In my own designs, I’ve found that the best games aren’t the ones that reveal everything up front, but the ones that invite players into a world where there’s always more to discover. That sense of mystery is what makes play feel alive.



    This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit justingarydesign.substack.com/subscribe
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    1 h et 14 min
  • Elan Lee — Building Exploding Kittens, Marketing as Design, Retail Pitches, and Playing to Sell (#91)

    Elan Lee — Building Exploding Kittens, Marketing as Design, Retail Pitches, and Playing to Sell (#91)
    Sep 9 2025
    About ElanElan Lee (@elanlee) is the co-creator and chief executive officer of Exploding Kittens, a leading gaming and entertainment company. Under his leadership, Exploding Kittens has expanded its portfolio to nearly 30 different games with more than 60 million games sold in more than 50 countries since its founding in 2015.Before founding Exploding Kittens, Lee was the chief design officer at Xbox Entertainment Studios, where he led the Interactive Entertainment Portfolio. Prior to that, he was the founder and chief creative officer of Fourth Wall Studios and co-founder of 42 Entertainment. He began his career at Microsoft Games Studios as a lead designer on the original Xbox.Lee has won a Primetime Emmy for the series Dirty Work; Game Innovator of the Year for Exploding Kittens; a Peabody Award for the world’s first alternate reality game, The Beast; and an IndieCade Trailblazer Award for a distinguished career in interactive entertainment, among others.In this episode, Elan and I discuss into how his company built their rigorous playtesting culture, why marketing is inseparable from product design, and how pitching to Target and Walmart is just another kind of game. Whether you’re trying to break into retail, sharpen your viral marketing instincts, or simply design games people can’t stop playing, this conversation will give you both insight and inspirationAh-ha! Justin’s Takeaways* Execution is the Superpower: From manufacturing to social media strategy, Elan’s team treats execution as part of game design. Elan explains why 80% of his company are marketers, producers, and logistics experts, all aligned around making games irresistible to discover and play.* Marketing is Product Design: At Exploding Kittens, marketers have veto power. A game might be hilarious to play in the room, but if it can’t be captured in a five-second social video, the game never makes it out of the room. Elan shares how his team tests hundreds of games at design retreats, then filters them through a marketing lens to ensure the product is not only fun but also instantly communicable and shareable.* Play to Sell: When pitching to Target or Walmart, Elan doesn’t “sell” games—he plays them. He gets buyers into the experience, proving the fun directly. This approach yields extraordinary success rates, with most of Exploding Kittens’ pitched games picked up for retail. Elan reframes pitching as playing with new friends, making joy the ultimate sales tool.Show Notes"She said, ‘I just want you to take a moment and take a breath and realize you built this thing.’" 00:04:46It’s easy as creators to focus on what’s broken or what needs fixing (I know I fall into this mindset myself) but sometimes the most powerful thing you can do is step back, practice gratitude, and recognize how far you’ve come. Elan’s wife reminded him of this during a board meeting, and it’s a lesson all of us can use to cultivate more joy in our creative journey."It doesn’t matter if it’s the best game in the world. If they don’t know how to sell it, it is not worth wasting our time on." 00:15:15Sometimes as game designers, we feel like the job ends once the mechanics click. Marketing can seem like an afterthought, but the truth is that it’s part of product design. Elan bakes this into his process by giving his marketing team veto power at design retreats. It’s a powerful reminder: if you want your game to succeed, you must think not only about how it plays but also about how it will be discovered. For Elan, that means asking whether a game can be sold in five seconds on social media. He shares stories of projects he loved that never made it to market because his team couldn’t find a way to sell them. This strategy is tied directly to reaching the casual gameplay audience, which demands this very specific approach."All I do is I talk to my friends about how much fun they are about to have, and then I prove it." 00:32:25Elan’s approach to pitching games is radically simple: instead of talking, play the game and let the experience do the work. Whether you’re pitching to Target or teaching your prototype at a convention, the best way to win people over is to let them feel the joy for themselves. Hearing this made me rethink my own approach, as I’ve often been guilty of trying to “sell” too much instead of simply playing.“[Poetry for Neanderthals] is, in its purest form, a tool set to let you talk to other people in the room." 01:04:01Elan describes his games as tool sets that let players entertain each other, which is why games like Poetry for Neanderthals or Codenames can stay fun even after dozens of plays. My philosophy takes a different angle: I aim to design games that last a lifetime, so my team thinks deeply about what the 100th play will feel like, something Elan admits he never has to think about with his own games, designed for his casual gaming audience.Whether your players stick around for ten...
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    1 h et 18 min
  • Justin Gary — 5 Lessons From 15 Years (#90)

    Justin Gary — 5 Lessons From 15 Years (#90)
    Aug 21 2025
    At Gen Con this year, we kicked off Ascension’s 15-year anniversary celebration. I had the chance to meet so many fans who have been part of this community for over a decade; the experience was both humbling and rewarding.We just launched the Gamefound Campaign for the Ascension 15th Anniversary Collector’s Edition and I’ve been reflecting on the incredible journey that brought us here. What began as a casual prototype I created to play with friends between rounds of Magic tournaments has grown into a game that connects millions of players around the world.Here are the five most important lessons I've learned, each has transformed Ascension from a prototype to a global phenomenon.Lesson 1: Prototype and Iterate FastWhen I first started working on Ascension, I never expected it to become the success it is today. It was 2009, and I had just quit my job to start my own game company. The funny thing about starting a company is that until you’re making money and collaborating with others, the difference between “CEO/Game Designer” and “guy sitting on his couch” is mostly a matter of attitude.At the time, I had spent over a hundred hours playing the deckbuilding game Dominion. This game pioneered the genre, offering the fun of deckbuilding without the hassle of collecting cards. As a Magic: The Gathering Pro, I loved that it delivered the joy of constructing a deck without buying packs or managing a collection. Eventually, however, the game became predictable. Because each setup of available cards was fixed from the start, I rarely needed to change my strategy. I also found that the game took too long to set up, impacting the ratio of fun to busy work in a way I thought could be improved.The secret to creating Ascension was simple: remove the things from Dominion that get in the way of fun.My first prototype was literally just a shuffled pile of Dominion cards, which instantly cut 20 minutes off setup time. Mind you, this prototype wasn’t good, but it gave me a quick sense of how the gameplay might feel, and I could see a spark of something great there. My next prototype was nothing more than sharpie scribbles on blank cards. Since my prototypes were quick and ugly, I had no problem throwing them out and making rapid changes. That freedom allowed Ascension to go from idea to store shelves in under 18 months.The lesson: Your first prototype should be so ugly you're embarrassed to show it to anyone. That embarrassment is freedom—freedom to fail fast, change everything, and find the fun without falling in love with your first ideas.Lesson 2: When in Doubt, Cut it outMost new designers try to solve problems by adding things to their games. The correct answer is almost always to cut instead.Ascension started by cutting Dominion’s purchase and play restrictions. This streamlined the game and gave players more choices each turn, but also required me to add a second resource [power] to keep tension high. This change was just the start, the biggest cut came much later in development.Ascension’s signature innovation was the ever changing center row, which dramatically increased the variety in each game. At the same time, this mechanic also created the risk of a stalled board state, meaning that if players weren’t able to buy anything from the center, nothing would change and the game would drag on. My original solution was a “conveyor belt” mechanic, where, at the end of each turn, the rightmost card was banished and everything slid down. This guaranteed movement and created tension as cards neared the edge.The problem was that players kept forgetting to slide the cards down. Every. Single. Game.I tried everything: special cards that interacted with the conveyor belt, giant reminder text on the board, entire mechanics to make sliding feel essential. Nothing worked. Then one playtester asked the question that should have been obvious but I was blind to: "What if we just cut that rule?"We shuffled up, played without it, and never looked back. The game was cleaner, faster, and more fun. Did the board stall occasionally? Yes, but we could mitigate that by subtly adjusting card costs and adding banish effects players could buy when needed. In this case, the conveyor belt cure was far worse than the occasional stalled board disease.The lesson: Every mechanic costs mental energy. When facing a design challenge, always ask first: "What can I eliminate to solve this problem?" Remember, "dead now" doesn't mean "dead forever." Cut mechanics make great expansion content later.Lesson 3: Perfect Your Pitch Through RepetitionEvery game needs a killer hook, and the only way to find it is through repetition. Brutal, exhausting repetition.I learned this the hard way at my first Gen Con booth, where we sold the first copies of Ascension 15 years ago. Over the course of the show, you pitch the game a hundred times. You refine, adjust, and figure out what works. By the end, I could pitch and demo Ascension in...
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    22 min
  • Tim Ferriss — Designing Coyote, Playing to Learn, Publishing Truths, and Saying "No" (#89)

    Tim Ferriss — Designing Coyote, Playing to Learn, Publishing Truths, and Saying "No" (#89)
    Aug 7 2025

    About Tim Ferriss

    Tim Ferriss is a category of one. His innovative approach to life and business has helped him to launch 5 New York Times Bestellers, build one of the most influential podcasts in the world with over one billion downloads, become an early stage investor in companies like Uber, Facebook, Shopify, Duolingo and more. His #1 New York Times Bestselling Book, The 4-Hour Work Week, was part of the inspiration for me to quit my job and start my own company (you can here more of that story in my appearance on Tim’s podcast here). And now he has taken all of those skills and brought them to game design with the release of Coyote. We dive deep on all of these topics and learn how Tim selects and approaches each new arena he seeks to conquer. Tim deliver’s on many insights that will apply to you regardless of your creative field.

    Think Like A Game Designer is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.



    This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit justingarydesign.substack.com/subscribe
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    2 h et 31 min
  • Cole Wehrle — Cute Creatures, Brutal Games, Asymmetric Design, and Subverting Expectations (#88)

    Cole Wehrle — Cute Creatures, Brutal Games, Asymmetric Design, and Subverting Expectations (#88)
    Jul 24 2025

    About Cole

    Cole Wehrle is one of the most innovative minds in board game design today. Cole is a partner at Leder Games, but best-known as the creator of Root, the woodland war game that redefined asymmetric play. Cole’s work reaches far beyond cute meeples and clever mechanics, with a background in history and a career in academia, Cole approaches game design as a way to explore systems of power, narrative ambiguity, and the complexity of human behavior. In this episode, Cole and I dive deep into the tension between control and chaos, discussing how historical research fuels good design, and why the best games ask players to grapple with uncomfortable truths. Whether you’re designing your first prototype or searching for deeper meaning in your work, this conversation will challenge you to think differently about what games can do.



    This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit justingarydesign.substack.com/subscribe
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    1 h et 16 min