Why is it that modern churches seem so successful in introducing people to Jesus but struggle to lead them into a life of true transformation?

Brian Fisher doesn’t hold back as he has done a deep dive on how there is something missing in the church experience: a failure to address the deeper stages of discipleship.

Drawing from his own journey through loss, reflection, and rebuilding, Brian shares his vision for a radically different approach: smaller, intimate communities focused on spiritual formation instead of surface-level engagement.

In this episode, Brian and Matt discuss how “the wall” in the discipleship journey forces us to confront our brokenness and deepen our relationship with Christ.

And Brian introduces the Soil & Roots concept of “Greenhouses,” spaces designed to cultivate deep spiritual growth, and how they differ from traditional small groups.

For anyone longing to go beyond the basics of faith, this episode is a must-listen.

• The Wall and Wilderness: Moving through disorientation is painful, but it’s necessary for deeper growth in Christ.
• Reimagining Discipleship: The first three stages of faith - knowing, learning, and serving - are just the beginning. True transformation happens in stages four, five, and six.
• The Greenhouse Model: Unlike most small groups, greenhouses foster safety, intimacy, and authentic wrestling with God’s truths.
• The Church’s Blind Spot: Modern church structures often focus on attracting crowds but neglect the messy, time-consuming work of deep spiritual formation.
• Hope After Ministry: Brian’s story shows there is life and ministry after vocational leadership - if we’re willing to redefine success on God’s terms.

• "Churches are great at making converts but struggle to make disciples who think, act, and love like Jesus."
• "True spiritual formation happens in the wilderness, not in the crowd."
• "The church should grow smaller, not bigger, if we want to see real transformation."
• "The wall isn’t a punishment - it’s an invitation into God’s deeper love."

• 0:00 – 2:02: The Church’s Failure in Stages Four, Five, and Six of Discipleship
• 2:03 – 5:35: What Is a Greenhouse? Introducing the Model for Deep Spiritual Growth
• 5:36 – 8:29: Why Most Small Groups Aren’t Enough for Real Formation
• 8:30 – 10:49: The Power Struggles in Church Institutions and Why They Resist Change
• 10:50 – 13:37: Wrestling with Faith: The Importance of Vulnerability in Community
• 13:38 – 15:46: Gratitude for the Wilderness: Finding Joy in Suffering
• 15:47 – 19:52: Dredging the Depths: Removing Debris to Create New Life
• 19:53 – 22:38: Becoming Deeper People: Awake to God, Others, Ourselves, and Creation
• 22:39 – 24:54: Inviting People Into the Deep End of Discipleship
• 24:55 – 26:54: Connecting with Soil and Roots

Brian’s insights challenge us to rethink what it means to truly follow Jesus. Whether you’re longing for deeper community, wrestling with your faith, or navigating a wilderness season, this episode provides hope and practical guidance.

• Website: SoilandRoots.org
• Podcast: Soil and Roots (Available on all platforms)
• Substack: Search Soil and Roots for in-depth articles on discipleship

This is part two of Brian’s story. Together with part one, it paints a compelling vision for what the church could become if we embraced the call to deeper discipleship.

What do you do when the life you built for the kingdom - your identity, your mission, your livelihood - gets ripped away without explanation?

For Brian Fisher, founder of a thriving pro-life nonprofit that saved over 18,000 lives, the answer wasn’t immediate. In 2020, he and his wife were forced out of the ministry they built. Their possessions came home in cardboard boxes, and their community turned silent.

In this raw and honest episode, Brian reflects on the crushing loneliness and profound disorientation that followed. But this isn’t just his story- it’s the story of countless ministry leaders who face the same unspoken challenges.

Together, we explore what happens on “Day One” after hitting rock bottom and begin to uncover the tools for navigating the inward journey, the wall, and the deep transformation that only comes through suffering.

• From Success to Loss: Brian recounts building a nonprofit that combined technology and Christ-centered care to save lives, only to lose everything suddenly in 2020.
• The Loneliness of Ministry Transition: When a leader is removed, awkward silences and a lack of support can amplify the grief, leaving them isolated.
• Facing Day Zero: After a ministry ends, many leaders feel lost and abandoned, wondering, “What now?”
• Understanding The Wall: The wall - a stage of profound disorientation - is where God invites us to sit in the pain and uncover deep truths about ourselves and Him.
• The Need for Witness: In seasons of suffering, what we often need most isn’t advice or solutions but someone to simply sit with us in the mess.

• "The hardest part wasn’t being fired. It was the deafening silence of people who used to stand with us."
• "The wall isn’t just a season - it’s an invitation to let God redefine what ‘good’ looks like."
• "We need people who will sit with us, not try to fix us, when life falls apart."
• "The church must get better at stages four, five, and six of discipleship - where transformation really happens."

• 0:00 – 3:09: Introduction: Meeting Brian Fisher
• 3:10 – 6:20: The Rise of a Pro-Life Nonprofit
• 6:21 – 9:08: The Loss: Forced Out Without Explanation
• 9:09 – 11:36: Navigating Day Zero: Loneliness and Isolation
• 11:37 – 15:12: The Journey Inward: Facing The Wall
• 15:13 – 17:12: The Role of Witness: How Others Can Help
• 17:13 – 21:27: Wrestling with God: Letting Go of Success
• 21:28 – 25:15: The Wall as a Gift: Redefining God’s Goodness

Brian Fisher’s story offers a blueprint for those navigating seasons of loss and disorientation. Learn more about how to embrace the inward journey and build communities for true spiritual growth.

• Website: SoilandRoots.org
• Podcast: Soil and Roots (Available on all platforms)
• Substack: Search Soil and Roots for thought-provoking articles

This is part one of Brian’s conversation. Don’t miss the next episode, where we dive deeper into his work with Soil and Roots and how he’s helping others grow spiritually after ministry transitions.

Imagine being just weeks away from your wedding and finding out through a third party that you've been fired from your church. This is exactly what happened to Wes Gay.

In this episode of Life After Ministry, host Matt Davis and guest Wes Gay dive into the difficult transitions from church ministry to marketplace success.

Together, they explore what it means to be forced out of a role you thought defined you, and how to build a thriving career outside the church while using the same skills honed in ministry.

1. Unlearning Church Culture: Transitioning from ministry to the marketplace often requires unlearning assumptions about money, leadership, and success.
2. Transferable Skills: Skills developed in ministry - like empathy, communication, and leadership - are highly valuable in other sectors, including sales and business development.
3. Navigating Identity Crisis: Being a pastor may feel like your entire identity, but it’s an assignment, not who you are at the core.
4. Financial Freedom Is Not Shameful: Christians need to rethink the role of money in their lives. Financial success can be a tool for greater impact and service to others.
5. Practical Transition Advice: Start building a portfolio or exploring new opportunities before a crisis forces you into change.

1. "You are not your job title, and leaving ministry doesn’t mean you stop doing ministry."
2. "The skills you develop in ministry - leading, teaching, and caring for people - are incredibly valuable in the business world."
3. "For Christians, making more money isn’t evil - it’s a tool that can create more opportunities for impact."

• [00:00] Introduction – Matt Davis introduces Wes Gay and recounts their first meeting during Matt’s early StoryBrand journey.
• [02:52] Fired From Ministry – Wes shares his story of being unexpectedly fired just weeks before his wedding.
• [06:18] Repeated Job Loss – Wes explains the pattern of being let go from multiple ministry roles and its emotional toll.
• [08:26] Deciding to Leave Ministry – Wes describes his turning point in deciding not to return to ministry, despite applying for numerous church roles.
• [11:36] Unlearning Ministry Culture – Wes shares what he had to unlearn from church culture to succeed in the marketplace, including assumptions about money and leadership.
• [14:25] Identity, Assignment, Calling – Matt and Wes discuss the framework of identity, assignment, and calling, and how to navigate transitions with these in mind.
• [17:17] How Ministry Prepared Wes for Business – Wes discusses how his experience in ministry helped him transition into StoryBrand and the marketplace.
• [21:54] Transferable Skills – Matt and Wes explore the transferable skills pastors can bring into the marketplace, including communication and empathy.
• [24:58] Christians and Financial Success – A discussion on why financial success is not something Christians should feel guilty about.
• [28:07] Using Pastoral Skills in the Marketplace – Wes reflects on how his pastoral skills continue to influence his business relationships and how they’re still a form of ministry.
• [31:45] How to Communicate Clearly as a Church – Wes provides practical advice for churches on dropping the jargon and communicating clearly with their congregation.
• [37:40] Closing and Contact Info – Wes shares how listeners can connect with him for marketing advice or transition coaching.