What do you do when life shatters around you?

When everything you built - your family, your future, your faith - feels like it’s slipping through your fingers?

Bryan Elliott knows suffering intimately.

A tragic accident left his brother in a vegetative state.

Addiction nearly destroyed his daughters.

A brutal murder stole one of them forever.

His businesses collapsed.

His marriages unraveled.

His world should have crushed him.

But it didn’t.

Instead, Bryan woke up the morning after his daughter's murder with something that made no sense: peace.

Not numbness.

Not denial.

Actual, undeniable peace.

And then, something even crazier - joy.

How?

This episode of Life After Ministry goes deep into the mystery of suffering, not as something to survive, but as something that transforms.

Bryan doesn’t just talk about enduring pain - he talks about what it means to co-suffer with Christ, to find God in the darkest pit, and to come out on the other side more alive than ever.

If you’ve ever walked through a season where God felt absent - where the wilderness stretched on too long and the heartbreak felt too heavy - this is the episode you need to hear.

Because maybe, just maybe, your suffering isn’t the end of the story. Maybe it’s the beginning of something bigger than you ever expected.

• Why suffering is not just something to endure, but something God uses to transform us.
• The kingdom principle of co-suffering with Christ and how it leads to co-glorification.
• How to recognize God’s presence in the darkest seasons, even when He feels silent.
• Why suffering is an accelerant in spiritual growth and how it prepares us for what’s next.
• The role of grief, loss, and pain in shaping our faith and revealing God’s goodness.
• How Bryan’s story of unimaginable suffering led to an unshakable trust in God’s sovereignty.

00:10 | Welcome & Bryan’s background 01:15 | A tragic accident that unraveled his family 07:31 | When life keeps taking - divorce, addiction, business collapse 16:23 | The moment Bryan’s daughter was murdered 17:06 | Waking up with peace - and why it didn’t make sense 20:54 | Why suffering is an accelerant, not an obstacle 26:22 | What we’re missing about suffering as believers 33:42 | Encouragement for those walking through suffering 40:51 | How to move forward and trust God in the process

If you’re walking through a season of suffering, you don’t have to navigate it alone.

We’re giving away 14 copies of Bryan’s book, As In Heaven, for free. Be one of the first 14 people to email talk@pastoraltransitions.com, and we’ll send you a copy.

Want more resources on navigating life after ministry? Visit PastoralTransitions.com for guides, support, and practical help to walk through this season with clarity and hope.

To dive deeper into Bryan's ministry and find more resources on healing, restoration, and kingdom living, visit M46Ministries.com.

This is one of the most raw, gut-honest conversations we’ve ever had. Listen now, and let it reshape how you see suffering.

The church is supposed to be a place of healing. But what happens when it’s the source of the hurt?

Too often, we hear stories of toxic leadership, forced terminations, and broken congregations. And yet, no one wants to talk about it - not in the pulpit, not in the pews. The result? Wounds that never heal, pastors who burn out, and churches stuck in cycles of dysfunction.

In this episode, we sit down with Kayleigh Clark from Restor(y)to talk about church trauma, spiritual abuse, and the path toward real healing. This isn’t just theory - it’s real-life ministry, where pain meets restoration.

✅ Church trauma is real - and it doesn’t just affect congregants. Pastors are hurting, too. ✅ Healing must happen inside the church - we can’t keep looking for solutions outside the body of Christ. ✅ Difficult transitions leave lasting scars - but identifying past wounds is the first step to moving forward. ✅ God’s solution? Shepherds who care for the flock - not just institutions, but people who lead with compassion.

⏳ [00:00] – Why church trauma isn’t just an individual issue ⏳ [04:30] – The hidden cost of toxic congregations and forced terminations ⏳ [10:15] – Why “revitalization” often fails when trauma is ignored ⏳ [15:40] – What it means to be a trauma-informed pastor ⏳ [24:00] – How Restor(y) is helping churches rewrite their narratives ⏳ [30:10] – Practical steps toward healing, for both pastors and congregations

If church hurt has left you wounded, you’re not alone. Whether you’re a pastor in transition, a church leader navigating dysfunction, or a congregation longing for restoration, there is hope.

🔹 Learn more about Restor(y)’s work at restorycenter.com 🔹 If you need a safe space to talk, we’re here. Visit pastoraltransitions.com to start the conversation. 🔹 If you believe in this work, consider donating to help pastors in crisis find healing.

The church can be whole again. But it starts with facing the wounds. Let’s walk that road together.

Stepping out of ministry can feel like stepping into a free fall. For Jonathan Carone, leaving his church staff role wasn’t just a career transition—it was a journey of unraveling identity, reconciling relationships, and rediscovering purpose. In this episode of Life After Ministry, Jonathan shares his raw and honest story of being “coached off staff,” the lessons he learned in untangling his vocation from his identity, and how he found his way to thriving outside the walls of the church.

Jonathan’s story is one of heartbreak and healing, tension and transformation. Whether you’re wrestling with burnout, navigating a tough transition, or trying to figure out how to use your gifts in a new space, this episode is packed with wisdom and encouragement for the road ahead.

Key Takeaways:

• The emotional toll of juggling multiple ministry roles and unmet expectations.
• How reconciliation with former leaders brings closure and healing.
• The difference between calling, identity, and vocation—and why it matters.
• Practical advice for navigating transitions with honor, grace, and faith.

Chapter Markers: 0:00 – Introduction: Meeting Jonathan Carone and his ministry backstory. 5:20 – The toll of split roles: Balancing creative director, communications, and high school ministry. 12:45 – The moment of transition: What it means to be “coached off staff.” 20:10 – Reconciling relationships: Finding healing with former leaders. 28:30 – Identity vs. vocation: Lessons in rediscovering purpose after ministry. 35:50 – Thriving outside the church: Finding new ways to serve and make an impact. 42:15 – Final thoughts: Living boldly for the kingdom beyond vocational ministry.

Call to Action: Transitioning out of ministry is hard, but there’s hope and purpose on the other side. Let’s embrace the truth that your calling is bigger than your vocation. For more stories, insights, and encouragement, subscribe to Life After Ministry wherever you listen to podcasts. Let’s navigate this journey together!

What if the missing piece to a thriving ministry isn’t more strategy or programs but healthier culture? In this episode of Life After Ministry, we dive deep with Jenni Catron, a renowned culture coach, to uncover the secret sauce behind teams that thrive.

Together, we explore how great leaders don’t leave culture to chance - they build it with clarity and intention.

Jenni shares her personal journey from working in the record industry to executive church leadership and why culture became her passion. She opens up about her “aha moment” of realizing how deeply culture shapes our experiences and why neglecting it can derail even the best ministries.

Whether you’re a leader navigating toxic environments or simply trying to build a team that flourishes, this conversation delivers wisdom and practical tools to take your culture to the next level.

• Great culture doesn’t happen by accident: It takes a clear vision and deliberate effort.
• Why leaders often miss the mark: Without clarity, teams are left guessing - and disengaged.
• Staff transitions matter more than you think: How we say goodbye impacts the whole team’s trust and morale.
• Culture as stewardship: Healthy staff culture is the foundation for effective ministry.

• 0:00 - Welcome and intro to Jenni Catron
• 3:00 - Jenni’s journey: from music exec to church leader to culture coach
• 9:00 - What makes or breaks culture? Defining the “how” behind teamwork
• 18:00 - Conquering resistance: Leading through change with patience and clarity
• 30:00 - Staff transitions: The culture-shaping moments we often overlook
• 45:00 - Behind Jenni’s book Culture Matters and what’s next

Are you ready to build a culture that inspires your team and fuels your ministry? Don’t leave it to chance - start taking intentional steps today.

Join Jenni Catron and other incredible speakers at the free Culture Matters Summit. Register now at culturemattersummit.com. Explore Jenni’s new book, Culture Matters, and access tools to lead with clarity at get4sight.com/.

For more resources on making your staff transitions as graceful as your ministry, visit Pastoral Transitions. Let’s transform how we lead, together.

In this special episode of the Life After Ministry Podcast, Matt Davis, Bill Tom, and Noe Rivera - the founders of Pastoral Transitions - take listeners behind the scenes of their work, sharing insights into the emotional and practical challenges pastors face during ministry transitions.

From navigating grief and burnout to finding new career paths and healing spiritually, this conversation sheds light on the complexities of pastoral life after ministry. They explore how churches can handle transitions with love, care, and intentionality, and they share hopeful stories of pastors finding new beginnings.

This episode isn’t just about transitions - it’s about reshaping the way we approach them in the church. Whether you’re a pastor in transition, a church leader, or someone supporting ministry workers, this discussion is packed with wisdom and practical takeaways.

• Pastors are often silent sufferers, facing immense personal and professional pressures with few healthy outlets.
• The average pastoral tenure is only 3.6 years, making healthy transitions a critical need for churches.
• Grieving and gaining are both essential parts of the transition process; pastors must address their emotional health to thrive in new roles.
• Churches can strengthen their culture by handling goodbyes with grace and care, rather than division and pain.
• Pastoral Transitions has cut the average transition time from 12-18 months to just 4-5 months by offering personalized support.
• Mental health awareness is growing in the church, but there’s still work to be done to normalize counseling for ministry leaders.

• 0:00 – Introduction: The purpose of Pastoral Transitions and 2024 reflections.
• 1:30 – Bill’s journey: How his heart has grown for pastors in transition.
• 2:35 – The ripple effects of pastoral challenges on families and ministries.
• 3:27 – Coaching pastors to rediscover God’s voice amid transition.
• 4:48 – Career concerns: Helping pastors identify transferable skills.
• 7:28 – Reducing transition time: From 12 months to under 5 months.
• 10:05 – The grieving and gaining process in pastoral transitions.
• 15:51 – The cultural impact of poorly handled transitions.
• 18:52 – Redefining work as ministry: Marketplace ministry opportunities.
• 23:31 – Growing impact: Changing how the church thinks about transitions.
• 31:18 – Building a healthy culture of succession in churches.
• 32:43 – A message of hope: God’s provision and healing during difficult times.
• 36:54 – How to support pastors in transition: Practical steps for churches and individuals.

Transitions are never easy, but they can be done with love, grace, and intentionality. Join the mission to help pastors and their families heal and find hope. Share this episode with your church leaders or friends in ministry, and consider supporting a pastor in transition by donating at pastoraltransitions.com/donate. Together, we can transform how the church handles change and bring restoration to the body of Christ.

Why is it that modern churches seem so successful in introducing people to Jesus but struggle to lead them into a life of true transformation?

Brian Fisher doesn’t hold back as he has done a deep dive on how there is something missing in the church experience: a failure to address the deeper stages of discipleship.

Drawing from his own journey through loss, reflection, and rebuilding, Brian shares his vision for a radically different approach: smaller, intimate communities focused on spiritual formation instead of surface-level engagement.

In this episode, Brian and Matt discuss how “the wall” in the discipleship journey forces us to confront our brokenness and deepen our relationship with Christ.

And Brian introduces the Soil & Roots concept of “Greenhouses,” spaces designed to cultivate deep spiritual growth, and how they differ from traditional small groups.

For anyone longing to go beyond the basics of faith, this episode is a must-listen.

• The Wall and Wilderness: Moving through disorientation is painful, but it’s necessary for deeper growth in Christ.
• Reimagining Discipleship: The first three stages of faith - knowing, learning, and serving - are just the beginning. True transformation happens in stages four, five, and six.
• The Greenhouse Model: Unlike most small groups, greenhouses foster safety, intimacy, and authentic wrestling with God’s truths.
• The Church’s Blind Spot: Modern church structures often focus on attracting crowds but neglect the messy, time-consuming work of deep spiritual formation.
• Hope After Ministry: Brian’s story shows there is life and ministry after vocational leadership - if we’re willing to redefine success on God’s terms.

• "Churches are great at making converts but struggle to make disciples who think, act, and love like Jesus."
• "True spiritual formation happens in the wilderness, not in the crowd."
• "The church should grow smaller, not bigger, if we want to see real transformation."
• "The wall isn’t a punishment - it’s an invitation into God’s deeper love."

• 0:00 – 2:02: The Church’s Failure in Stages Four, Five, and Six of Discipleship
• 2:03 – 5:35: What Is a Greenhouse? Introducing the Model for Deep Spiritual Growth
• 5:36 – 8:29: Why Most Small Groups Aren’t Enough for Real Formation
• 8:30 – 10:49: The Power Struggles in Church Institutions and Why They Resist Change
• 10:50 – 13:37: Wrestling with Faith: The Importance of Vulnerability in Community
• 13:38 – 15:46: Gratitude for the Wilderness: Finding Joy in Suffering
• 15:47 – 19:52: Dredging the Depths: Removing Debris to Create New Life
• 19:53 – 22:38: Becoming Deeper People: Awake to God, Others, Ourselves, and Creation
• 22:39 – 24:54: Inviting People Into the Deep End of Discipleship
• 24:55 – 26:54: Connecting with Soil and Roots

Brian’s insights challenge us to rethink what it means to truly follow Jesus. Whether you’re longing for deeper community, wrestling with your faith, or navigating a wilderness season, this episode provides hope and practical guidance.

• Website: SoilandRoots.org
• Podcast: Soil and Roots (Available on all platforms)
• Substack: Search Soil and Roots for in-depth articles on discipleship

This is part two of Brian’s story. Together with part one, it paints a compelling vision for what the church could become if we embraced the call to deeper discipleship.

What do you do when the life you built for the kingdom - your identity, your mission, your livelihood - gets ripped away without explanation?

For Brian Fisher, founder of a thriving pro-life nonprofit that saved over 18,000 lives, the answer wasn’t immediate. In 2020, he and his wife were forced out of the ministry they built. Their possessions came home in cardboard boxes, and their community turned silent.

In this raw and honest episode, Brian reflects on the crushing loneliness and profound disorientation that followed. But this isn’t just his story- it’s the story of countless ministry leaders who face the same unspoken challenges.

Together, we explore what happens on “Day One” after hitting rock bottom and begin to uncover the tools for navigating the inward journey, the wall, and the deep transformation that only comes through suffering.

• From Success to Loss: Brian recounts building a nonprofit that combined technology and Christ-centered care to save lives, only to lose everything suddenly in 2020.
• The Loneliness of Ministry Transition: When a leader is removed, awkward silences and a lack of support can amplify the grief, leaving them isolated.
• Facing Day Zero: After a ministry ends, many leaders feel lost and abandoned, wondering, “What now?”
• Understanding The Wall: The wall - a stage of profound disorientation - is where God invites us to sit in the pain and uncover deep truths about ourselves and Him.
• The Need for Witness: In seasons of suffering, what we often need most isn’t advice or solutions but someone to simply sit with us in the mess.

• "The hardest part wasn’t being fired. It was the deafening silence of people who used to stand with us."
• "The wall isn’t just a season - it’s an invitation to let God redefine what ‘good’ looks like."
• "We need people who will sit with us, not try to fix us, when life falls apart."
• "The church must get better at stages four, five, and six of discipleship - where transformation really happens."

• 0:00 – 3:09: Introduction: Meeting Brian Fisher
• 3:10 – 6:20: The Rise of a Pro-Life Nonprofit
• 6:21 – 9:08: The Loss: Forced Out Without Explanation
• 9:09 – 11:36: Navigating Day Zero: Loneliness and Isolation
• 11:37 – 15:12: The Journey Inward: Facing The Wall
• 15:13 – 17:12: The Role of Witness: How Others Can Help
• 17:13 – 21:27: Wrestling with God: Letting Go of Success
• 21:28 – 25:15: The Wall as a Gift: Redefining God’s Goodness

Brian Fisher’s story offers a blueprint for those navigating seasons of loss and disorientation. Learn more about how to embrace the inward journey and build communities for true spiritual growth.

• Website: SoilandRoots.org
• Podcast: Soil and Roots (Available on all platforms)
• Substack: Search Soil and Roots for thought-provoking articles

This is part one of Brian’s conversation. Don’t miss the next episode, where we dive deeper into his work with Soil and Roots and how he’s helping others grow spiritually after ministry transitions.

Imagine being just weeks away from your wedding and finding out through a third party that you've been fired from your church. This is exactly what happened to Wes Gay.

In this episode of Life After Ministry, host Matt Davis and guest Wes Gay dive into the difficult transitions from church ministry to marketplace success.

Together, they explore what it means to be forced out of a role you thought defined you, and how to build a thriving career outside the church while using the same skills honed in ministry.

1. Unlearning Church Culture: Transitioning from ministry to the marketplace often requires unlearning assumptions about money, leadership, and success.
2. Transferable Skills: Skills developed in ministry - like empathy, communication, and leadership - are highly valuable in other sectors, including sales and business development.
3. Navigating Identity Crisis: Being a pastor may feel like your entire identity, but it’s an assignment, not who you are at the core.
4. Financial Freedom Is Not Shameful: Christians need to rethink the role of money in their lives. Financial success can be a tool for greater impact and service to others.
5. Practical Transition Advice: Start building a portfolio or exploring new opportunities before a crisis forces you into change.

1. "You are not your job title, and leaving ministry doesn’t mean you stop doing ministry."
2. "The skills you develop in ministry - leading, teaching, and caring for people - are incredibly valuable in the business world."
3. "For Christians, making more money isn’t evil - it’s a tool that can create more opportunities for impact."

• [00:00] Introduction – Matt Davis introduces Wes Gay and recounts their first meeting during Matt’s early StoryBrand journey.
• [02:52] Fired From Ministry – Wes shares his story of being unexpectedly fired just weeks before his wedding.
• [06:18] Repeated Job Loss – Wes explains the pattern of being let go from multiple ministry roles and its emotional toll.
• [08:26] Deciding to Leave Ministry – Wes describes his turning point in deciding not to return to ministry, despite applying for numerous church roles.
• [11:36] Unlearning Ministry Culture – Wes shares what he had to unlearn from church culture to succeed in the marketplace, including assumptions about money and leadership.
• [14:25] Identity, Assignment, Calling – Matt and Wes discuss the framework of identity, assignment, and calling, and how to navigate transitions with these in mind.
• [17:17] How Ministry Prepared Wes for Business – Wes discusses how his experience in ministry helped him transition into StoryBrand and the marketplace.
• [21:54] Transferable Skills – Matt and Wes explore the transferable skills pastors can bring into the marketplace, including communication and empathy.
• [24:58] Christians and Financial Success – A discussion on why financial success is not something Christians should feel guilty about.
• [28:07] Using Pastoral Skills in the Marketplace – Wes reflects on how his pastoral skills continue to influence his business relationships and how they’re still a form of ministry.
• [31:45] How to Communicate Clearly as a Church – Wes provides practical advice for churches on dropping the jargon and communicating clearly with their congregation.
• [37:40] Closing and Contact Info – Wes shares how listeners can connect with him for marketing advice or transition coaching.