Why is it that modern churches seem so successful in introducing people to Jesus but struggle to lead them into a life of true transformation?

Brian Fisher doesn’t hold back as he has done a deep dive on how there is something missing in the church experience: a failure to address the deeper stages of discipleship.

Drawing from his own journey through loss, reflection, and rebuilding, Brian shares his vision for a radically different approach: smaller, intimate communities focused on spiritual formation instead of surface-level engagement.

In this episode, Brian and Matt discuss how “the wall” in the discipleship journey forces us to confront our brokenness and deepen our relationship with Christ.

And Brian introduces the Soil & Roots concept of “Greenhouses,” spaces designed to cultivate deep spiritual growth, and how they differ from traditional small groups.

For anyone longing to go beyond the basics of faith, this episode is a must-listen.

• The Wall and Wilderness: Moving through disorientation is painful, but it’s necessary for deeper growth in Christ.
• Reimagining Discipleship: The first three stages of faith - knowing, learning, and serving - are just the beginning. True transformation happens in stages four, five, and six.
• The Greenhouse Model: Unlike most small groups, greenhouses foster safety, intimacy, and authentic wrestling with God’s truths.
• The Church’s Blind Spot: Modern church structures often focus on attracting crowds but neglect the messy, time-consuming work of deep spiritual formation.
• Hope After Ministry: Brian’s story shows there is life and ministry after vocational leadership - if we’re willing to redefine success on God’s terms.

• "Churches are great at making converts but struggle to make disciples who think, act, and love like Jesus."
• "True spiritual formation happens in the wilderness, not in the crowd."
• "The church should grow smaller, not bigger, if we want to see real transformation."
• "The wall isn’t a punishment - it’s an invitation into God’s deeper love."

• 0:00 – 2:02: The Church’s Failure in Stages Four, Five, and Six of Discipleship
• 2:03 – 5:35: What Is a Greenhouse? Introducing the Model for Deep Spiritual Growth
• 5:36 – 8:29: Why Most Small Groups Aren’t Enough for Real Formation
• 8:30 – 10:49: The Power Struggles in Church Institutions and Why They Resist Change
• 10:50 – 13:37: Wrestling with Faith: The Importance of Vulnerability in Community
• 13:38 – 15:46: Gratitude for the Wilderness: Finding Joy in Suffering
• 15:47 – 19:52: Dredging the Depths: Removing Debris to Create New Life
• 19:53 – 22:38: Becoming Deeper People: Awake to God, Others, Ourselves, and Creation
• 22:39 – 24:54: Inviting People Into the Deep End of Discipleship
• 24:55 – 26:54: Connecting with Soil and Roots

Brian’s insights challenge us to rethink what it means to truly follow Jesus. Whether you’re longing for deeper community, wrestling with your faith, or navigating a wilderness season, this episode provides hope and practical guidance.

• Website: SoilandRoots.org
• Podcast: Soil and Roots (Available on all platforms)
• Substack: Search Soil and Roots for in-depth articles on discipleship

This is part two of Brian’s story. Together with part one, it paints a compelling vision for what the church could become if we embraced the call to deeper discipleship.

What do you do when the life you built for the kingdom - your identity, your mission, your livelihood - gets ripped away without explanation?

For Brian Fisher, founder of a thriving pro-life nonprofit that saved over 18,000 lives, the answer wasn’t immediate. In 2020, he and his wife were forced out of the ministry they built. Their possessions came home in cardboard boxes, and their community turned silent.

In this raw and honest episode, Brian reflects on the crushing loneliness and profound disorientation that followed. But this isn’t just his story- it’s the story of countless ministry leaders who face the same unspoken challenges.

Together, we explore what happens on “Day One” after hitting rock bottom and begin to uncover the tools for navigating the inward journey, the wall, and the deep transformation that only comes through suffering.

• From Success to Loss: Brian recounts building a nonprofit that combined technology and Christ-centered care to save lives, only to lose everything suddenly in 2020.
• The Loneliness of Ministry Transition: When a leader is removed, awkward silences and a lack of support can amplify the grief, leaving them isolated.
• Facing Day Zero: After a ministry ends, many leaders feel lost and abandoned, wondering, “What now?”
• Understanding The Wall: The wall - a stage of profound disorientation - is where God invites us to sit in the pain and uncover deep truths about ourselves and Him.
• The Need for Witness: In seasons of suffering, what we often need most isn’t advice or solutions but someone to simply sit with us in the mess.

• "The hardest part wasn’t being fired. It was the deafening silence of people who used to stand with us."
• "The wall isn’t just a season - it’s an invitation to let God redefine what ‘good’ looks like."
• "We need people who will sit with us, not try to fix us, when life falls apart."
• "The church must get better at stages four, five, and six of discipleship - where transformation really happens."

• 0:00 – 3:09: Introduction: Meeting Brian Fisher
• 3:10 – 6:20: The Rise of a Pro-Life Nonprofit
• 6:21 – 9:08: The Loss: Forced Out Without Explanation
• 9:09 – 11:36: Navigating Day Zero: Loneliness and Isolation
• 11:37 – 15:12: The Journey Inward: Facing The Wall
• 15:13 – 17:12: The Role of Witness: How Others Can Help
• 17:13 – 21:27: Wrestling with God: Letting Go of Success
• 21:28 – 25:15: The Wall as a Gift: Redefining God’s Goodness

Brian Fisher’s story offers a blueprint for those navigating seasons of loss and disorientation. Learn more about how to embrace the inward journey and build communities for true spiritual growth.

• Website: SoilandRoots.org
• Podcast: Soil and Roots (Available on all platforms)
• Substack: Search Soil and Roots for thought-provoking articles

This is part one of Brian’s conversation. Don’t miss the next episode, where we dive deeper into his work with Soil and Roots and how he’s helping others grow spiritually after ministry transitions.

Imagine being just weeks away from your wedding and finding out through a third party that you've been fired from your church. This is exactly what happened to Wes Gay.

In this episode of Life After Ministry, host Matt Davis and guest Wes Gay dive into the difficult transitions from church ministry to marketplace success.

Together, they explore what it means to be forced out of a role you thought defined you, and how to build a thriving career outside the church while using the same skills honed in ministry.

1. Unlearning Church Culture: Transitioning from ministry to the marketplace often requires unlearning assumptions about money, leadership, and success.
2. Transferable Skills: Skills developed in ministry - like empathy, communication, and leadership - are highly valuable in other sectors, including sales and business development.
3. Navigating Identity Crisis: Being a pastor may feel like your entire identity, but it’s an assignment, not who you are at the core.
4. Financial Freedom Is Not Shameful: Christians need to rethink the role of money in their lives. Financial success can be a tool for greater impact and service to others.
5. Practical Transition Advice: Start building a portfolio or exploring new opportunities before a crisis forces you into change.

1. "You are not your job title, and leaving ministry doesn’t mean you stop doing ministry."
2. "The skills you develop in ministry - leading, teaching, and caring for people - are incredibly valuable in the business world."
3. "For Christians, making more money isn’t evil - it’s a tool that can create more opportunities for impact."

• [00:00] Introduction – Matt Davis introduces Wes Gay and recounts their first meeting during Matt’s early StoryBrand journey.
• [02:52] Fired From Ministry – Wes shares his story of being unexpectedly fired just weeks before his wedding.
• [06:18] Repeated Job Loss – Wes explains the pattern of being let go from multiple ministry roles and its emotional toll.
• [08:26] Deciding to Leave Ministry – Wes describes his turning point in deciding not to return to ministry, despite applying for numerous church roles.
• [11:36] Unlearning Ministry Culture – Wes shares what he had to unlearn from church culture to succeed in the marketplace, including assumptions about money and leadership.
• [14:25] Identity, Assignment, Calling – Matt and Wes discuss the framework of identity, assignment, and calling, and how to navigate transitions with these in mind.
• [17:17] How Ministry Prepared Wes for Business – Wes discusses how his experience in ministry helped him transition into StoryBrand and the marketplace.
• [21:54] Transferable Skills – Matt and Wes explore the transferable skills pastors can bring into the marketplace, including communication and empathy.
• [24:58] Christians and Financial Success – A discussion on why financial success is not something Christians should feel guilty about.
• [28:07] Using Pastoral Skills in the Marketplace – Wes reflects on how his pastoral skills continue to influence his business relationships and how they’re still a form of ministry.
• [31:45] How to Communicate Clearly as a Church – Wes provides practical advice for churches on dropping the jargon and communicating clearly with their congregation.
• [37:40] Closing and Contact Info – Wes shares how listeners can connect with him for marketing advice or transition coaching.

Imagine standing at the pulpit after your last sermon, knowing it's not just the end of a service, but the end of your ministry journey at that church. What happens next?

In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt Davis sits down with Matt McGee, founder of The Last Service Podcast, to explore the difficult transitions pastors face when they step away from ministry. Whether it's through burnout, church closure, or simply moving into a new season, Matt McGee has seen firsthand the emotional toll and the challenges that follow.

This episode tackles the question, "Is there life after ministry?" with a powerful reminder that ministry doesn’t end with a job title.

1. You Are Not a Failure: Leaving ministry - whether through a church closure or a transition—does not define your worth or calling.
2. Find Community After Ministry: Pastors must actively seek support, guidance, and pastoral care when leaving ministry to avoid isolation and burnout.
3. Reshaping Ministry: Ministry is not confined to church walls; it can happen anywhere - whether teaching in a school or simply being present for someone in need.
4. The Pain of Transition: Both pastors and their families carry deep emotional scars during church transitions, but acknowledging and processing these feelings is key to healing.
5. Proactive Pastoral Care: Churches should plan for pastoral transitions with intentionality, bringing in help and creating space for joy and healing, rather than letting the process turn solely into a business decision.

1. "You're not a failure. Mistakes happen, but they don’t define the Spirit of God or your calling."
2. "We are believers in resurrection, and just like death brings new life, leaving ministry can lead to new beginnings."
3. "Ministry isn't about the pulpit - it’s about being a godly influence wherever you are, whether that’s teaching at a school or working at Burger King."

• [00:00] Introduction – Matt Davis introduces Matt McGee and the conversation begins with ministry transitions.
• [00:50] Early Ministry Calling – Matt McGee shares his journey into ministry and how God led him to serve in the church.
• [06:18] Transitioning Out – Matt McGee describes the internal and external factors that led to his departure from church ministry.
• [11:23] The Breaking Point – A difficult leadership dynamic and unaligned values lead Matt to a crucial conversation with his pastor.
• [14:59] Aftermath of Leaving Ministry – Matt shares the emotional and practical challenges his family faced after his sudden departure.
• [19:16] Community Support Post-Ministry – How Matt's church community responded after he left, and the importance of maintaining healthy relationships.
• [21:30] Returning to Teaching as Ministry – Matt’s journey back into education, this time with a renewed sense of calling and mission.
• [25:29] Redefining Ministry – How stepping outside church walls changed Matt's perspective on ministry and service.
• [29:56] Last Service Podcast – The inspiration behind Matt McGee’s Last Service Podcast, which explores church closures and transitions.
• [33:42] The Importance of Pastoral Care in Transitions – How church leaders can approach closures with care and attention to the emotional needs of their congregation.
• [36:58] Encouragement for Pastors in Transition – Matt offers words of wisdom for pastors facing their final service, reminding them they are not failures.
• [42:06] Conclusion – Matt McGee shares where listeners can find The Last Service Podcast and other resources.

What happens when you step away from the calling you’ve always known and venture into the unknown?

Jordan Whilden found himself at that crossroads, leaving behind nearly a decade of church ministry for an uncertain future in the marketplace.

But this episode of Life After Ministry is not just about leaving; it’s about rediscovering purpose, redefining ministry, and understanding that God's calling often transcends job titles.

Jordan's journey from pastor to CEO of Ministry Hub reveals how stepping away from a church role doesn’t mean stepping away from serving the Kingdom.

In this episode, Matt Davis talks with Jordan about the anxiety that comes with such a leap, the lessons learned, and how God continued to use his gifts in new, impactful ways.

For anyone wrestling with the question, "Is there life after ministry?" - Jordan’s story offers hope, clarity, and insight.

1. Transitioning Well: When stepping out of vocational ministry, it’s essential to take time for self-reflection and healing before jumping into the next chapter.
2. A New Kind of Ministry: Jordan’s experience shows that leaving church staff doesn’t mean leaving ministry. There are ways to serve the Kingdom that may have even broader impacts.
3. A Pastor’s Heart, Reimagined: Even when Jordan stepped into the marketplace, he carried the heart of a pastor, finding new ways to shepherd leaders through Ministry Hub.
4. Building Clarity: It’s crucial to understand your strengths, desires, and God’s calling before leaping into a new career - clarity leads to thriving.
5. Supporting Transitions: Ministry Hub focuses on helping pastors and churches navigate transitions effectively, recognizing the unique needs of both sides in today’s job market.

1. "As soon as I stepped into the marketplace, there was a breath of fresh air - freedom I didn’t realize I needed."
2. "Just because you leave the church doesn’t mean you leave ministry; I found a way to invest more in the Kingdom in a broader way."
3. "The goal is to land in a place where you thrive - where you can be the most fruitful in your calling."

• [00:00] Introduction – Matt Davis welcomes Jordan Whilden, founder and CEO of Ministry Hub.
• [00:10] Early Ministry Career – Jordan discusses his calling into ministry, starting as a high school pastor and moving into discipleship roles.
• [01:59] Decision to Leave Church Ministry – Jordan explains the factors that led him to leave his pastoral role, including burnout and church culture changes.
• [04:02] The Fear of Transition – The emotional and practical challenges of leaving ministry, and how Jordan navigated his “day zero” in stepping away from vocational church work.
• [05:14] Life After Ministry – Jordan reflects on his first Sunday post-ministry and the process of finding a new church home.
• [08:13] The Birth of Ministry Hub – How Jordan’s passion for connecting people and creating systems led to the development of Ministry Hub.
• [11:54] Serving Pastors in Transition – Jordan shares insights on what pastors look for when transitioning out of ministry, and how Ministry Hub supports them.
• [13:42] Serving Churches in Transition – Ministry Hub’s innovative approach to helping churches find new leaders through scalable, flexible staffing solutions.
• [17:26] Encouragement for Leaders in Transition – Jordan gives practical advice to pastors in transition, from crafting clear resumes to knowing their personal calling.
• [20:56] Redefining Ministry Beyond the Church – How Jordan sees his current work with Ministry Hub as a broader way to serve the church and the Kingdom.
• [23:45] How to Connect with Ministry Hub – Jordan shares how pastors and churches can connect with Ministry Hub for help in transitions and staffing.

Learn more about the great work Jeremy Stalnecker is doing through the Mighty Oaks Foundation by going to: https://www.mightyoaksprograms.org/

Imagine coming home from leading Marines on the battlefield in Iraq, only to feel lost and frustrated while trying to get church volunteers to clean a bathroom.

The intensity and mission-driven focus of war collide with the quieter challenges of ministry life in ways that can lead to emotional turmoil.

In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt Davis sits down with Jeremy Stalnecker, a former Marine officer turned pastor, to discuss how transitioning out of the military and into ministry nearly destroyed him.

Jeremy shares how misaligned expectations, hidden trauma, and identity loss can derail even the most driven leaders - and how a balance of grace, truth, and time helped him navigate those life-altering transitions. Together, they explore how to rediscover purpose, even when life feels like it's falling apart.

1. Identity Shift: Transitioning from military life to ministry was overwhelming for Jeremy, revealing how tied his identity was to his role in the Marines.
2. Lack of Intensity in Church Ministry: The shift from the high-stakes environment of the military to the slower pace of church life left Jeremy feeling frustrated and disconnected from the mission.
3. The Power of Honest Confrontation: A pivotal moment came when Jeremy's pastor confronted him about his behavior, helping him realize that the problem started within, not with external circumstances.
4. Seeking Guidance: Transition requires mentorship and guidance from those who’ve walked the path before - a crucial element Jeremy wished he had during his shift from the Marines to ministry.
5. Ministry Beyond the Church Walls: Jeremy's work with Mighty Oaks Foundation demonstrates how ministry can thrive outside the church setting, helping veterans and first responders find healing through faith.

1. "Everything I had ever wanted to be a part of, I had done - and then I was leading church staff meetings, trying to wrangle volunteers. It was a whole different world."
2. "The reasons for your behavior may be valid, but they’re not excuses. You can’t justify the way you're acting, no matter what you’ve been through."
3. "Your calling may change locations, but the gifts God gives you are without repentance - they’ll follow you wherever you go."

• [00:00] Introduction – Matt Davis welcomes Jeremy Stalnecker, discussing the transitions from military service to ministry.
• [00:15] Military Service and the Iraq War – Jeremy recounts his time as a Marine officer and his experience during Operation Iraqi Freedom.
• [02:15] Transition from the Marines to Ministry – Jeremy describes the challenge of shifting from combat to church staff life, feeling out of place and frustrated.
• [06:46] The Struggle in Ministry – The tension between military urgency and church work led to anger and personal turmoil, both at home and in church staff meetings.
• [09:55] Confrontation with the Pastor – Jeremy's pastor confronts him about his behavior, offering both support and a challenge to change.
• [12:15] Turning Point – A key turning point where Jeremy takes time off to reflect and begins to recognize the internal issues driving his actions.
• [14:27] Becoming a Senior Pastor – Jeremy transitions into a senior pastor role, facing new challenges and personal growth in the process.
• [15:55] Moving from Senior Pastor to Mighty Oaks Foundation – Jeremy shares how he transitioned into his current role at Mighty Oaks, blending his military and ministry backgrounds.
• [18:34] Navigating a Smooth Transition – Practical advice on how Jeremy managed his transition out of pastoral ministry into nonprofit leadership.
• [21:22] Ministry in Mighty Oaks Foundation – Jeremy explains how Mighty Oaks helps veterans and first responders heal through faith and how his pastoral skills apply in his current role.
• [24:49] Pastoring Beyond the Church – Discussing the concept of pastoring as a role, not just a title, and how Jeremy continues to pastor in a different capacity.
• [28:40] How to Connect with Mighty Oaks – Jeremy shares where to find more information on Mighty Oaks and how to get involved or refer someone in need of help.

Imagine achieving what seems like ministry success on the outside - leading a growing church, serving a vibrant congregation - while internally battling crippling anxiety, sleepless nights, and the haunting thought of leaving it all behind.

In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt Davis sits down with John Opalewski of Converge Coaching to explore how ministry leaders can hit their breaking point despite outward success.

John shares his personal journey of going from thriving youth pastor to suicidal depression as a senior pastor, and the hard-won lessons about self-care, boundaries, and the crucial role of mental health in ministry. Together, they tackle the question: how can pastors prevent burnout and find lasting fulfillment in both ministry and life?

1. Workaholism and Neglect: Many pastors fall into the trap of overworking, neglecting their personal health, friendships, and boundaries, which often leads to burnout and depression.
2. The Power of Honest Conversations: Addressing difficult emotions like anger and setting clear boundaries in ministry are vital for long-term emotional and mental health.
3. Support from the Church Board: While a pastor’s well-being is their own responsibility, church boards can support this by providing resources like counseling and coaching.
4. Depression Doesn't Define You: Depression isn't the end of your story. There are paths to recovery, healing, and a healthier way to live and serve in ministry.
5. There is Life After Ministry: Ministry may take new forms, but the pastoral calling can continue beyond the pulpit, even in marketplace roles or other creative avenues.

1. "Burnout doesn’t come from chasing Jesus - it comes from chasing people or ideas that never seem to come to fruition."
2. "Depression is not the final chapter in your story. There’s a way out, and it starts with finding a safe place to share."
3. "Your calling follows you wherever you go. It may look different, but it never leaves you."

• [00:00] Introduction – Matt welcomes John Opalewski to discuss his ministry journey and transition.
• [00:33] Early Calling into Ministry – John shares how he found his call to ministry through discipleship.
• [02:44] Entry into Pastoral Ministry – John describes his path to becoming a lead pastor and how it lacked preparation for the emotional challenges.
• [05:40] Challenges as a Lead Pastor – The immense pressure of being a senior pastor at 29, with a lack of boundaries and emotional maturity.
• [06:31] The Impact of Anger and Boundaries – How John's inability to manage anger and set boundaries led to emotional damage.
• [11:43] Role of the Elder Board in Supporting Pastors – John reflects on how boards can create space for preventive care for pastors’ mental health.
• [14:28] John's Breakdown – John recounts the moment he fell into suicidal depression, despite outward success in ministry.
• [19:38] Deciding to Leave Ministry – After two years of recovery, John decides to step down as lead pastor.
• [21:47] Transitioning into the Marketplace – John's surprising peace after leaving ministry and entering the corporate world.
• [24:21] Being Called Pastor After Stepping Down – John shares his mixed emotions when people continued to address him as “pastor” after he left.
• [25:45] Founding Converge Coaching – How John’s transition led to starting Converge Coaching to help pastors prevent burnout and stay healthy.
• [28:47] The Growing Need for Pastoral Care – John highlights the staggering burnout rates among pastors and the importance of coaching and support.
• [31:57] Words of Encouragement – John speaks directly to pastors facing burnout or depression, offering hope and guidance.
• [34:35] How to Connect with Converge Coaching – John explains the simple on-ramp to getting help through Converge Coaching.
• [35:59] Is There Life After Ministry? – John reassures listeners that ministry doesn't end after stepping away from the pulpit—your calling continues in new forms.

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/ To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk

Learn more about the great work David Robinson is doing at Coaching 4 Marketplace by going to: https://coachdaverobinson.com/

What if you dedicated decades of your life to ministry only to discover the role you've been striving to fulfill doesn't align with your true calling?

In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt sits down with David Robinson, a seasoned pastor who faced the painful realization that his gifting was not what people had expected of him.

Together, they tackle the disappointment of unfulfilled expectations in ministry, the challenges pastors face when their role doesn’t fit their calling, and the key to finding clarity and purpose in leadership.

How can churches avoid burnout, embrace better hiring processes, and ensure that their pastors are operating within their true gifts?

This episode dives deep into what it takes to build effective ministry teams and how to lead a church while avoiding common pitfalls.

1. Clarity Prevents Confrontation: Many conflicts arise from unclear expectations in leadership roles; upfront clarity in job descriptions and performance agreements is essential.
2. Gifting vs. Role Expectations: Churches often expect pastors to fulfill multiple roles, but each leader needs to operate within their God-given spiritual gift.
3. The Importance of Building a Team: An apostolic leader must focus on building a balanced team of other gifts - shepherds, teachers, evangelists, and prophets - instead of trying to do it all themselves.
4. Relational Equity Matters: The strength of a church’s leadership is often determined by the relationships built outside formal meetings - trust grows from investing in personal connections.
5. Burnout Doesn't Come From Chasing Jesus: Burnout in ministry occurs when leaders chase after people or tasks outside of their gifts, not from pursuing their true calling.

1. "Confrontation is the flip side of clarity. If you're not clear upfront, confrontation is inevitable."
2. "God told me, 'I never called you to be a pastor.' It wasn't the shepherding gift He gave me, but another that was needed in the places He sent me."
3. "Burnout doesn’t come from chasing Jesus; it comes from chasing people and tasks that don't align with your gift."

• [00:00] Introduction – Matt and Marilee introduce David Robinson and the theme of unfulfilled expectations in ministry.
• [00:41] Unfulfilled Expectations in Leadership – David explains how lack of clarity in roles leads to disappointment and confrontation.
• [02:00] Five Key Areas of Clarity in Hiring – Spiritual gifting, temperament, clear job description, and performance agreements are necessary for successful leadership.
• [04:32] Frustration in Ministry – David shares his 40-year experience in ministry and the internal struggle of being called a "pastor" without having a shepherding gift.
• [07:50] The Role of Apostolic Leadership – A discussion on the difference between an apostolic gifting and the expectations placed on pastors.
• [12:44] Elders’ Role in Supporting Leadership – How elders hold pastors accountable and build trust through relational equity.
• [15:12] Tension Between Ministry and Corporate Approaches – Addressing the disconnect between ministry-focused staff and marketplace-minded elders.
• [18:08] Managing Transitions and Letting Go – How to approach pastoral transitions with grace and maintain emotional maturity during difficult conversations.
• [19:49] Vision vs. Management in Ministry – The importance of maintaining a compelling vision to prevent ministry from devolving into mere management.
• [21:59] Addressing Burnout in Ministry – How burnout happens when leaders pursue tasks outside their gifting and how to create balance.
• [26:27] Life After Ministry – David discusses the possibility of life after vocational ministry and how to embrace a new calling outside the church.

Learn more about our work at Pastoral Transitions by going to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/

Learn more about the great work David Robinson is doing at Coaching 4 Marketplace by going to: https://coachdaverobinson.com/